York's famous Machinegun finds a home

[Brad Posey]

PAGE 19 (cont) - 2007 SYDE Report - 3


http://www.tac-bsa.org/ResHistTrail_...expedition.pdf

On page 19 the SYDE makes this statement:


“Two roads. York and Vollmer’s testimony confirm that there were two roads available for York to march the German prisoners back to the American lines in the vicinity of Hill 223 / Chatel Chehery. The SYDE designated location is adjacent to these two roads.”



I have read York and Vollmer’s testimonies many, many times and I find no reference to two roads anywhere. The only reference I can find is York saying that the German Major (Vollmer) suggested he take the road at the foot of the hill.


Here is what York said:


“The Boche commanding officer wanted to line up facing north and go down through the valley along the road which runs by the foot of the hill, but I knew if they got me there it would be as good as they wanted on account of the machine guns on the opposite slope, so I said, “No, I am going this way”, which was the way I had come, and which led through the group of machine guns placed here (pointing at the map), which seemed to be outpost guns. We had missed this machine gun nest as we advanced, because we had gone further to the left.”

Page 266
York Diary



Compare what York said with the previous map by Buxton and Danforth. I have already discussed this in great detail earlier in the thread. Vollmer attempted to put York and the column in front of Thoma’s guns which were deployed on the northeastern slope of the hill. These are the guns that York said they missed because they went further to the left during the egress. They are also the same guns that the 82nd Division History mention York captured on the return along the northeast slope of the hill and were the same guns that were responsible for pinning down the left flank of G Company, 328th Infantry still fighting in the valley between Hills 223 and 167.



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[Brad Posey]

PAGE 19 (cont) - 2007 SYDE Report - 4


http://www.tac-bsa.org/ResHistTrail_...expedition.pdf


Now we find this statement by the SYDE on page 19:


In a meadow.vii “The first battalion, 120th Landwehr, under Lieutenant Vollmer, deployed below Humser Hill in the meadow valley west of Chatel Chehery... The men of the 210 regiment arrived west of Chatel Chehery and stopped in the meadow.”

Das Württembergishche Landwehr Infanterie Regiment nr. 120 im Weltkrieg 1914-1918


“Vollmer, the former supply officer of the 125th, deployed along the southern edge of Humser Hill, in the meadow… the Reserve Infantry Regiment 210 arrived in the meadow.”

Das Württembergishche Landwehr Infanterie Regiment nr. 125 im Weltkrieg 1914-1918




Having personally visited the Stuttgart archives and read the same documents the SYDE cites here I am amazed, truly amazed at how they came up with this nonsense. I also had these same documents officially translated by a German court appointed translator to ensure they were accurate.


In order to explain what they (SYDE) have done here is a little complicated because what they did was misuse and incorrectly translate material from both regimental histories. It is difficult to find exactly where they (SYDE) got these references since they seem to be a mixture from several sources in addition to being poorly translated or totally distorted, you decide for yourself.


Here is the only way I can illustrate what has happened and I must show what they (SYDE) write, then what the original German text says followed by the official translation. My summary folllows of how this SYDE “error” could have occurred.



The SYDE Report (page 19) says:


“The first battalion, 120th Landwehr, under Lieutenant Vollmer, deployed below Humser Hill in the meadow valley west of Chatel Chehery .... The men of the 210 regiment arrived west of Chatel Chehery and stopped in the meadow.”

Das Wuerttenbergische Landwehr Infanterie Regiment nr. 120 im Weltkrieg 1914 – 1918

And:

“Vollmer, the former supply officer of the 125th, deployed along the southern edge of Humser Hill, in the meadow ... the Reserve Infantry Regiment 210 arrived in the meadow.”

Das Wuerttenbergische Landwehr Infanterie Regiment nr. 125 im Weltkrieg 1914 – 1918




The Original German Text that I found in ”Das wuerttembergische Landwehr Infanterie Regiment Nr. 120 im Weltkrieg 1914 – 1918” (p. 164):

„Waehrend diese Reserven im Anmarsch waren, war das I./L. 120 vom Humserberg ins Tal westlich Chatel vorgezogen worden, um zusammen mit oertlichen Reserven des L.I.R. 125 und mit dem eben mit Kraftwagen herangefuehrten I.R. 210 (150 Gewehre) gegen Schoene Ausicht anzugreifen.“

And:


The Original German Text I found in ”Das wuerttembergische Landwehr Infanterie Regiment Nr. 125 im Weltkrieg 1914 – 1918” (p. 171):


„Das I./L. 120 unter Oberleutnant Vollmer, dem frueheren Verpflegungsoffizier des II./L. 125, wird schon beim Ueberschreiten des Suedrandes des Humserberges vom feindlichen Artilleriefeuer zersprengt und findet sich erst teilweise am andern Morgen in der Mulde, dem sogenannten Schiesstal von Cornay, wieder zusammen, wo es dann dem weiteren Vorstoss der Amerikaner in der Mulde erliegt. Das eben mit kraftwagen herangebrachte schwache Res. Inf. Regt. 210 bleibt in den Wiesen liegen. Die Schoene Aussicht verbleibt in den Besitz der Amerikaner. Ja, diese sind auch noch im Lauf des Nachmittags weiter in die Mulde eingedrungen.“


Here is the official translation in English by a German court appointed translator of the 120th LDW document listed above:


“While these reserves were approaching, the 1st Battalion, 120th Landwehr was pulled forward from the Humserberg into the valley west of Chatel, and together with local reserves of the 125th Landwehr, and with the 210th Infantry Regiment (150 rifles), which had just arrived by motor truck, were to attack Schoene Aussicht (Hill 180).”


And:


Here is the official translation in English by a German court appointed translator of the 125th LDW document listed above:


“The 1st Battalion, 120th Landwehr Infantry was led by First Lieutenant Vollmer, the former Supply Officer of the 2nd Battalion, 125th Landwehr Infantry, is dispersed by enemy artillery fire as soon as the troops cross the southern edge of the Humserberg, and is in part not able to regroup until the following morning, in the depression, the so-called Schiesstal of Cornay, where it then succumbs to the further advance of the Americans in the depression. The under strength Reserve Infantry Regiment 210, which had just been arrived by motor trucks, remains in the meadows. Schoene Aussicht (Hill 180) remains in the hands of the Americans. They even advanced further into the depression in the course of the afternoon.”



It is possible that what the SYDE is doing is combining several quotes from different documents including these:



The Original German Text I found in ”Das wuerttembergische Landwehr Infanterie Regiment Nr. 120 im Weltkrieg 1914 – 1918” (p. 164):



„Das Batallion Krimmel war bis zum letzten Mann eingesetzt, das I. Batallion war im Vormarsch zersprengt worden, und von dem Regiment 210, dessen paar Maenner Richtung Chatel in den Wiesen lagen, war nach allem, was man sah und hoerte, nicht viel zu erhoffen......“


„Vom I. Batallion hatte sich nunmehr die 4. Kompagnie eingufunden. Sie lag in Richtung Chatel in den Wiesen. Zu ihr begab sich Oberleutnant Vollmer, der die Nacht bei Hauptmann Krimmel gelegen hatte......“


Official translation in English by a German court appointed translator:



“Battalion Krimmel was engaged up to the last man, the 1st Battalion was scattered during the advance, and, based on what could be seen and heard, little could be expected of the few remaining men from the 210th Regiment lying in the meadows in the direction of Chatel.”


“The 4th Company from the 1st Battalion had finally arrived. They lay in the meadows in the direction of Chatel. First Lieutenant Vollmer went up to them; he had spent the night with Captain Krimmel.”



Trying to figure out the few actual quotes the SYDE does use in their report is very confusing because it is evident that they either poorly translated these documents, did very sloppy research or intentionally manipulated them in order to confuse and distort this whole story. They seemed to have banked on no one else going to the German archives, but that has now changed and they are nowhere to be found in defending their position here or in any other forum where this debate has been carried out.





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[Brad Posey]

Page 20 analysis starts tomorrow night.


Brad


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[Brad Posey]

Before I finish tonight I want to show a few photos of a few artifacts that Dr. Nolan found in 2006. These two artifacts were professionally conserved and I think add hope for those of us that have a leather item in very poor condition. These two artifacts were buried in the Argonne for almost 90 years.


First one is a leather German spade carrier – before and after conservation.

Brad


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[Brad Posey]

Here is the German gas mask - before and after conservation.


Brad


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[Brad Posey]

The SYDE Report Has Vanished!


There has been a significant event that has impacted my ability to analyze the SYDE report here in the WAF. The report that I have been analyzing used to be on the Boy Scouts of America (Trans-Atlantic Council) web site…………. It has disappeared! That’s right gone - vanished. The link is now a dead link and the Trans-Atlantic Council page that I found the report on does not list it anymore, only the Meuse-Argonne and SGT York Historic Trail Guides.


Here is where the report used to be found – now its not there anymore, only the two Historic Trails I mentioned above:


http://www.tac-bsa.org/ResHistTrail.html


Luckily I saved a PDF copy of this report, but it is too big to post here. I could continue with my analysis of the report, but members following this thread will no longer be able to see the actual report to compare with what I post.



I guess this means that the SYDE has been following this thread, but do not want to enter the discussion for whatever reason. That may also explain why the publication of their “new and updated report” has been delayed again and again on their official web site. http://sgtyorkdiscovery.com/SYDE_Report.php First the web site announced that the updated report would be published in May 2010 and now it says August 2010….one more day to go before August has come and gone.


Well the debate is far from over and in a sense has only warmed up.


Maybe someone else should contact the Trans-Atlantic Council and inquire why the report was removed. Here is their contact information:

Vince Cozzonne is the Scout Executive. Anyone can send him or the other Trans-Atlantic Council leaders a message through this link:

http://www.tac-bsa.org/ContactUs.html


Numerous attempts have been made by others addressed directly to the Army Officer and his team’s members inquiring about why the report continues to be absent from their official web site, but they fail to reply.


Attempts to get the US Army Center of Military History to re-look at this historical discrepancy have also remained unsuccessful. But, they and the Boy Scouts are not the finial authorities on this matter.


Any thoughts from other WAF members?



Brad


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[Brad Posey]

The internet never ceases to amaze me. I just found a “cached” version of their report on Google. Unfortunately the maps and graphics are not visible, so I will be able to continue an analysis of the text portions.

Here is the Google “cached” report.


http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...expedition.pdf


Brad


PS. More to follow very shortly

[Brad Posey]

The 2007 SYDE Report – Google Cached version


http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...expedition.pdf



Due to missing graphics I would like to go directly to what I thought was the most intriguing part of this report and it is “new” material that I do not recall seeing on the original report that used to be available on their official SYDE web site.


On Page 37 you will find “ANNEX A”


The SYDE details the 4 phases of their research.



“Phase I: Historical, archival research”

“Phase II: Initial terrain analysis in the Argonne”

“Phase III: Searching for the primary locations in the battle”

“Phase IV: Finding other important locations connected to the “York Spot” -
2007 expedition in the Argonne:”




Phase IV is what I would like to discuss in some great detail. Here is what they say the purpose of Phase IV research is about:


“Although a number of important finds were uncovered in the 2006 expedition, further research is required to bring York story alive and to forever end the debate surrounding the York story.”



The goals of the 2007 expedition I find rather ambiguous and somewhat far reaching in the sense of being realistic from a scientific, historical or archaeological standpoint.



Here are their Phase IV goals:




“1. Identify the locations of the important German officers involved in the battle of
8 October 1918.”


“a. German Lieutenant Fritz Endriss, the 120th Landwehr Regiment company commander, who led the bayonet charge against York.”


“b. German Lieutenant Paul Lipp, the commander of the German company on the right flank of the 125th Landwehr Regiment, who led the soldiers who fought against York.”


“c. German Lieutenant Paul Vollmer, 120th Landwehr, 1st Battalion Commander physically surrendered to York.”


“2. Identify the location of key Americans; including the location where Corporal Savage fell – easily identifiable as he was the only American with York who was buried where he fell (disinterred in 1919)”


“3. Identify the location of a possible 2nd German machine gun position and complete recovery of artifacts from the primary machine gun that York fought against.”


“4. Confirm the location of the German forward edge of the battlefield (FEBA) near the York spot. ‘


“5. Identify the American break-through location facilitated by York’s action.”




Now, in order to identify the location, or “exact spot” – if I may – of any of the German officers mentioned in their Phase IV goals would be virtually impossible unless they found a dog tag with that particular soldiers name on it. That in itself is not conclusive being we will never know when that dog tag was lost. It could have before, during or after the fight. What is important is that no such “missing link” dog tag was found with the exception of a dog tag from a 125th LDW soldier that they sensationalized in the German and US Army Europe media. This particular dog tag is not sensational at all since it was found on a hill (Hill 167) that is known to all, including me, that the 7th Company, 125th LDW occupied during the battle.



Finding Corporal Savage’s temporary burial. They say:




“2. Identify the location of key Americans; including the location where Corporal Savage fell – easily identifiable as he was the only American with York who was buried where he fell (disinterred in 1919)”



I am not sure how they intend to identify this burial so easily since:



1.) - The US Army Graves Registration Service (GRS) record grid coordinates for Savage’s burial are missing from his GRS file. Only the erroneous coordinates provided by Chaplain O’Farrely are in his GRS records – I have discussed these records in great detail earlier in the thread. So far the SYDE has failed to even recognize any of the US Army GRS records for any of the 6 men killed during the fight. Why do they mention Savage; who’s file was found to be incomplete in the first place and why do they continue to avoid mentioning the graves of the 5 others who had complete and accurate records?



2.) – The US Army Signal Corps 1919 photograph of Savage’s burial does resemble the terrain at the SYDE site. The Signal corps photograph of the 4-ma burial absolutely does not resemble anything at the SYDE site. As you have seen earlier in this thread I have made an extensive 1919/modern photographic comparison of the 1919 photos of the site and graves with the modern views and they compare very favorably with Dr. Nolan’s site and not compare at all with the SYDE site.



Everything else here has already been explained in great detail. I want to get on to some other very interesting SYDE claims and statements.



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[Brad Posey]

The 2007 SYDE Report – Google Cached version – PAGE 40


http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...expedition.pdf


On page 40 the SYDE states:


“Requirements for further analysis and research in the Argonne: To conduct battlefield research in the Argonne, approval of the following is required:”


“1. The Champagne-Ardenne Conservateur Régional de L’archéologie, Mr. Yves Desfossés”


“2. Mayor of Châtel Chéhéry, France - Roland Destenay. Upon securing concurrence from CMH, SYDE will submit formal requests to the Champagne-Ardennes Conservateur Régional de L’archéologie, and the Mayor of Châtel Chéhéry, France to conduct the battlefield research.”




These “requirements” are what I find most interesting. As you recall I was present during a July 2008 relic hunting trip with the SYDE. I guess that I was unknowingly participating in Phase IV research.


As the SYDE stated above they “required” the approval of Mr. Yves Desfossés, the regional conservator of archaeology, in order to carry out their planned Phase IV research.



Here is an excerpt from:

Hot on the York Trail
By: Stephan van Meulebrouck
Published: Western Front Association Bulletin 84, June/July 2009



“Desfossés had, in fact, never heard of Mastriano at the time. In December of 2006 he finally spoke to the lieutenant-colonel. ‘His methodology appeared not to be particularly accurate. At that point he asked me for a permit for further research, but I turned him down.’ Desfossés refuses to speak of a criminal offence. ‘I think Mastriano simply didn't know that a permit was needed. And, by the way, I suspect that afterwards he went on with his digs anyway.’



The article goes on to say:



“The curator is surprised to hear that the SYDE report mentions him as one of the ‘valuable partners/friends who made the discovery possible.’ ‘That's simply not true. I met Mastriano only once, and I told him at the time that I did not agree with his methods.’ And why was that? ‘Mastriano was already convinced that he had found the exact spot. That's where he looked, and that is also where he found those 21 cartridges. Of course, that is much too obvious. Clearly it was not an objective investigation. Nolan took a scientific approach. And at the spots where his team worked, one will still be able to carry out archaeological research in the future. While Mastriano ruined his research site.’




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[Brad Posey]

The 2007 SYDE Report – Google Cached version – PAGE 40


http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...expedition.pdf




Here is the part of the article that discusses my very short relationship with the Army officer and the SYDE:


Hot on the York Trail
By: Stephan van Meulebrouck
Published: Western Front Association Bulletin 84, June/July 2009


“Douglas Mastriano did indeed continue to use a metal detector. In July of 2008 he was assisted in that by Brad Posey, a retired US Army staff sergeant. Posey is a fervent amateur archaeologist of long standing who lives, like Lt. Colonel Mastriano, in Germany. They came into contact through several auctions of WW I equipment and uniforms on an online auction site and the officer invited Posey to help search in the Argonne.”


“At first Posey found the lieutenant-colonel's report convincing, but began having doubts when new finds suddenly appeared at the SYDE's York Spot. ‘We uncovered a lot of artifacts they had missed, and some directly at the York Spot, like another .45 cartridge case and a fired .45 slug. The count of .45 casings is now over the 21 he states in his report.’ Posey points out that Mastriano has not updated his report, nor does he mention other important artifacts that were found at the York Spot and in the surrounding area. ‘In his report he only mentions and illustrates those artifacts that support his claim.’


“Back home, Posey began studying the American sources, such as the Official History of the 82nd Division (York's unit), published in 1919. On the basis of that material he concluded that the York Spot must be in the valley southeast of where Mastriano was searching. But there was more: ‘It seemed that Lt. Colonel Mastriano totally ignored all of the U.S. accounts of the action, with the exceptions of a few phrases that fit his version of the story.’ The description given by Mastriano, Posey explains, states that York's gunfight took place on an eastern-facing slope, and that York attacked the German positions from the front. All the American sources, however, indicate that the fight actually took place on a western-facing slope, behind German lines. No mention of that, however, is found in the SYDE report.”

“The sergeant also emphasizes that, in his view, the SYDE has provided no concrete indications as to the exact configuration of the German regimental lines – the crucial bit of evidence, according to Mastriano. ‘Their report,’ Posey says, ‘does indeed include a long and impressive list of the German archives consulted, but that's all. Have you seen a proper annotation anywhere?’

“Once again, those German files. Is that perhaps where the key to the mystery lies? To put an end to the controversy, Posey has now begun his own, independent study of the archives.”


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[Brad Posey]

The 2007 SYDE Report – Google Cached version – PAGE 41

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...expedition.pdf



On page 41 we find this:



“Upon securing concurrence from CMH, SYDE will submit formal requests to the Champagne-Ardennes Conservateur Régional de L’archéologie, and the Mayor of Châtel Chéhéry, France to conduct the battlefield research.”



As I just illustrated the SYDE was not able to secure the required authorization from the French archaeological authorities and went about their research anyway.




Here is a little more information about the US Army Center of Military History (CMH) support and CMH “concurrence” the SYDE required in order to proceed with their research:


http://sgtyorkdiscovery.com/uploads/CMHWeb.jpg


The CMH “endorsement” was issued by Dr. Clarke, the former Director of the CMH, who retired from federal service last month. The current acting director of the CMH, Colonel Crean, said to me in an email to my US Army email account, and for reasons of “national security” – so they say – I will refrain from an exact quote, but what Colonel Crean basically told me was that the CMH does not have a position on the York affair or will not as long as he is the acting director.



Here is an exact quote he sent to my personal civilian email account:


“ I can't believe the unprofessional and offensive email sent by Mr. Posey. There is a third scenario he did not forsee and that is any expectation of support from me or the Center under my watch he may have had is now gone. I am amazed.”


Colonel Crean’s email to me above to me was his reply to a serious boo-boo I made. In summary I replied to an email from another researcher that was actually a “forward” from Dr. Clarke explaining to the researcher his retirement from federal service. So my reply went to Dr. Clarke instead of the person I intended it to go to. Here is what my email said:


“I will look up COL Cream’s address for you. I suspect that you will not hear a peep out of Dr. Clarke since he is retired.”

“Several things could happen; they acting director could simply defer you to the old director since he will – obviously – have no idea of what you are talking about and will say that Dr. Clarke is now retired and no longer represents the CMH so therefore he (the new director) cannot comment on letters of endorsement issued by Clarke. Or, he will ignore you on parting instructions from Clarke.”

“Either way, you need to bug the S#&T out of him.”


“Brad”



My bad…. I wrote several long emails of apology and stressed to Dr. Clarke and COL Crean the importance of reviewing these very clear discrepancies. I received replies from COL Crean through my US Army email account that I cannot quote directly here that informed me that I should be reported to my commander for a security violation by providing a foreign national (the other researcher) his (COL Crean) email address, that he suspected I obtained through the US Army Global Address List. They can get all of the computer experts they have and they will find that I never used the Global Address List to search for his email address or provide it to the other researcher.


This is starting to sound like a conspiracy. They, the CMH, threatened to report me for a security violation in my attempt to cast a little light on a huge discrepancy involving one of America’s most decorated heroes of WW One..!!..??..


I may loose my job over this, but to me the truth is more important.



Brad


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[Jean-Loup]

Hi Brad.
"Cached" is a very usefull tool to be able to view documlents that have been removed from the net.
It looks like the army officer has admitted his own defeat because of the way he is behaving: not responding, removing documents, etc.
Once again, congradulations for your work.

JL

[Don D.]

Brad, AKO email addresses are not classified. They are blowing smoke up your @ss.

[Brad Posey]

Hi Brad.
"Cached" is a very usefull tool to be able to view documlents that have been removed from the net.
It looks like the army officer has admitted his own defeat because of the way he is behaving: not responding, removing documents, etc.
Once again, congradulations for your work.

JL

Jean-Loup.


You are right!


Brad

[Brad Posey]

Before I get going again with the SYDE 2007 report I wanted to check and see if their new updated report would be available on their web site. No surprise, it is still not there. First they said May 2010 and now August 2010.

It is kind of hard for anyone to read anything historical about their discovery and why the monument and trail are located where they are without a report. Oh well…..

http://sgtyorkdiscovery.com/SYDE_Report.php


Brad

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