York's famous Machinegun finds a home

[Chris Boonzaier]

The more likely case is the officer saw that they were facing a determined American solider. Bayonet charges were still used to break the fighting spiret of the enemy. In this case they wanted to rattle York's cage because small arms fire was not doing the job. I believe this is the reason the officer ordered the charge to be made.

I dont know... A bayonet charge??
Imagine how long it took.... why did they not just hit the dirt and reload? already giving the orders "fix bayonets, we are gonna charge this guy..." and the look of incomprehension from a guys who could probably not remember how the things went on... "You kidding me,,"Sir"?"... when fumbling to get them out of the sheath and on the rifle.... this is not a split second thing to coordinate, especially when out in the open and under fire.

And did the officer say "You guys are useless shots... only way we are going to get this guy is to run straight at him and hope we can run faster than he cn pull the trigger..."

I was not there, but my money is on York shooting guys who were running by.

Am I missing something or were there no German wounded?

[Chris Boonzaier]

I find the whole incident strange especially the capture of all those MG,s. The supposed bayonet charge of fourth rate troops who by that stage of the War where surrendering in thousands all along the Western Front.
The 2nd LDW was a Sector Division meaning most of its younger men were removed to more important parts of the Western Front being replaced by older Landsturm men and the 45th Res. who according to my ref. by that stage was heavily infiltrated by Bolsheviks.

I champion Brad,s research but I fear it will become controversial and spill over into 'Political correct' Army Histories if it is,nt already.
One thing I dont find strange is the site of the monument. Is it unusaul to find a better spot (if it is) when laying a memorial?

Eric

One thing is sure, the 120th Landwehr were not the boys who liked a lot of noise. I have a diary to a man who was in Vollmers company in 1916, they were occupying a section of the line in Avocourt at the time. He mentions that in the unit the NCOs were sent to the front with the men, the officers prefered to avoid it. So how much fighting spirit Vollmer showed on that day before surrendering is debatable... However, having said that, I dont think Yorks Patrol would have known that... They may very well have been attacking a bunch of Garde Grenadiers... and instead of surrendering with 135 men, Leutnant Von XXX and his men could have wiped out the patrol... and noone would ever have heard of York and Co again... but they dd not KNOW who tey were up against.

What I am saying is, often, to win, you need a dose of luck and a dash of bravery... bravery without luck can go bad, luck without bravery is wasted.

So York and Co had the needed dash of Courage, the gods were smiling on them and they triumphed...

Think of the following possibility... you are walking down a corridor and it comes to an end... someone says, whe white barrier in front of you is either 1) a concrete wall or 2) a cardboard wall painted white...

A number of things can happen... with your fist ...

a) You punch as hard as you can and hit a concrete wall (Courage without luck)
b) You punch as hadas you can and the cardboard crumbles (Courage and luck)
c) you begin to swing, then chicken out and end up not knowing if it was cardboard or concrete because you punched like a pansy...

York and co had B).

Guys with type B luck get medals, guys with a) may get them, but posthumously.

As far as th number of MGs go, I think the number is waaaaaay over the allotment of a regular unit, never mind Landwehr, but the question that bugs me is... "Who counted them?"... the prisonners had been stripped and were off tothe rear.... their equipment spread all over... the salvage guys came days later... who collected the MGs together and counted them?

[Brad Posey]

1) One thing Modern Machine Gunners overlook is that the MG08 could be used in an indirect fire "Machine Gun Barrage"... Do you think all the concentrations of Cartridges are related to the York action , or also taking neighbouring sectors under fire indirectly?.

Thanks for the comments, discussion and questions, let me see if I can add to this to hopefully clear a few things up I will address each separately.

Correct. We found three positions that were certainly occupied by a German MG. Two of them were directly over the advance of G/328th Infantry at a distance of about 200-300 meters. I am sure these were engaging with direct fire. The other was located almost on top of the hill above the ravine, this one more than likely was using indirect fire techniques directed at 328th Infantry targets in the valley below. Having said that, we found evidence of the presence of other German MGs, but we do not believe they engaged anything and more than likely were in a transport mode when the fight occurred. I will discuss this in a minute.

All of this is explained earlier in this thread.

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[Brad Posey]

2) One thing to be remembered... All over the world People/Kids disapear into the woods with guns to go plinking... as Brad says, occasionally there is a battlefield relic with a bullet through it... 2 or more however may mean plinking. 9MM 45. etc all in one place ... Is possibly some school kids in 1920 shooting weapons found in a barn. We can suppose, but it will never be sure.
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This is a possibility, but I do not think so in this case. Number one; I have been metal detecting on battlefields for over 30 years as well as detecting countless non-military sites and I have never encountered or even heard about something even remotely similar to what we found in this isolated and remote site.

The 1919 Saturday Evening Post article and York’s own Diary give us the clues that explain this as I pointed out earlier. York states in his diary that when returned to the scene shortly after the battle he saw a canteen that had 18 bullet holes in and an old “shell helmet” that looked like an old “sieve”. As I pointed out earlier, York has mixed up the timeline because he also states that the dead had all been buried and the area policed up by the salvage unit. This is not true. The dead were not buried until several weeks after the fight, so what York is apparently talking about is when he was there during the 1919 investigation.

It is a strange coincidence that we found a German canteen with numerous 9mm and .45 caliber bullet holes through it and about 15 meters away the remains of an American helmet with the entire crown missing.

The 1919 Saturday Evening Post article says that York out shot his battalion commander, Major Tillman, in every match with the pistol. Why would a battalion commander be shooting against a low ranking enlisted man unless that man had done something exceptional, particularly with a pistol? Prior to this battle York had not distinguished himself in any way other than being known as a good shot with his rifle while he was in basic training. He never distinguished himself in any other way after this battle during the rest of the war. Also, this fight is the only incident that could have given a battalion commander reason to have a shooting match with one of his corporals.

It is easy for me to picture that during the almost week long 1919 investigation that such a match would have occurred. Nowhere else on this battlefield or any other battlefield that I know of were so many bullet struck artifacts found, especially in such a small and confined site.

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[Brad Posey]

3) I am wondering about the bayonet charge... Having read the various statements I think there were a group of Germans running through the forest and York shot them. Period.
a) Bayonet charges had gone out of fashion in 1918. It would have been way easier for the germans to shoot.
b) Who adds a bayonet to a long rifle to run through a forest?
c) York mentions shooting them from back to front so they would not realise what he was doing. Surely if they were charging him they could see what he was doing and then shooting them from front to back would have been a better solution?
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If you look back at Captain Swindler’s investigation in preparation for the 1928 Army War College Relief Carnival you can see that in his correspondence with York’s former commanders Major Buxton and Captain Danforth that they did not think the bayonet charge was a concerted effort, but rather a group of Germans moving in the direction of the commotion taking place in the rear of their position.

Parts of the official record as well as the MOH citation lean towards the embellishment of the event as I discussed earlier. I have written many award recommendations for my soldiers during my Army career and as all of you former NCOs and Officers out there know this is not always an easy process even for something simple like an Army Achievement Medal. Most of the time they get rejected because of lack of quantifiable justification. Then I have re-write it eventually when I make the soldier sound like the best thing since sliced bread it will be approved.

I think something like that took place in this case. Not trying to discredit York, because that is not true…York deserves his MOH and he earned it, but I can picture the recommendation was embellished to some degree. This mainly concerns the bayonet charge and number of German MGs which I will re-discuss here in a minute.


Who really knows if the Germans actually had attached bayonets or not, but I would not be so sure that the practice had gone out of style by 1918. Look at the photo again of Savage’s grave…..his rifle has the bayonet attached. Also at the site two separate pieces of American bayonet were found in addition to several German bayonets that were not found with scabbards. This could indicate that they were attached to rifles and removed during or after the battle. Either way, I think there certainly were a number of Germans with bayonets attached, it appears all of the Americans had their bayonets attached to their rifles.


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[Brad Posey]

I find the whole incident strange especially the capture of all those MG,s. The supposed bayonet charge of fourth rate troops who by that stage of the War where surrendering in thousands all along the Western Front.
The 2nd LDW was a Sector Division meaning most of its younger men were removed to more important parts of the Western Front being replaced by older Landsturm men and the 45th Res.

Well the 82nd Division History states that 35 German MGs were captured in this fight. I find that impossible and the Germans even discounted this number saying they did not have that many MGs in the entire area.

In Dr. Michael Birdwell’s book “Celluloid Soldiers” Birdwell, who is the curator of the “York Papers” has found where York stated sometime after the war that he had only taken out 1 German MG.

As I mentioned earlier we did find evidence of several MGs being that we found weapon system components in the small area: a MG water can, several pieces of water cans, remains of an MG ammunition belt, 4 MG08 drag sling hooks and the brass tip from an ammunition belt. AS far as piles of cartridges that would represent a MG emplacement we found two distinct and one probable bring the total to 3 that were actually firing this area. The others were more than likely still in travel configuration or simply not used. Even though we found MG weapon system component parts on the slope above the ravine, where the Germans were located that York was engaging, we did not find any “piles” of cartridges to indicate an MG position. The cartridges were scattered with no more than 5 or 6 at a single location. This is more consistent with riflemen scattered across the slope, which is in agreement with the German historical record of the fight. At any range a German MG engaging York or any of the other Americans would have also struck their own men that the Americans had just captured. That did not occur so I am inclined to believe that it was riflemen located on this slope who hit the 9 American casualties killed and wounded in this fight. It is probable that one of the Germans carrying an MG08/15 may have got off a few rounds or was in the process of engaging York when York shot him.

The 2nd LDW Division was a low rate division as you state, but again, the bayonet charge was more than likely not a concerted effort, but in reality several men including LT Endriss from 4/120 LIR who were responding to the commotion going on to the rear of their position.

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[Brad Posey]

but I fear it will become controversial and spill over into 'Political correct' Army Histories if it is,nt already.
One thing I dont find strange is the site of the monument. Is it unusaul to find a better spot (if it is) when laying a memorial?

I disagree, that is the kind of talk that the SYDE would probably like to see so everyone will just keep quiet and let things stay the way they are.

What I find so wrong with all of this is that no one is looking closely at the results of two separate US Army investigations into this matter. One conducted in 1919 on site with York and his entire chain of command which is narrated in the official 82nd Division History as well as the 191 Saturday Evening Post article, The other investigation was conducted by Captain Swindler of the US Army War College and the results of his investigation were used as the narrative summary he presented during the 1828 Army Relief Carnival reenactment of the fight.

So, the US Army has already conducted two separate investigations and published two summaries on what happened and where it happened. It is very clear in both summaries that the fight occurred in the remote ravine and not where the current monument is.

Why the US Army Center of Military History or anyone else not recognize their own (US Army) official investigations is beyond me. Probably because they have been forgotten and after Colonel Mastriano made his big ceremony and monument dedication no one had actually taken the time to look for these documents or even knew of their existence and simply relied on and sponsored Colonel Mastriano’s work without verifying what he was saying was true or not. As I have illustrated over and over the German accounts that he insists on provided the clues to his spot being right actually are in agreement with the US accounts.

The location of the monument is important because currently visitors to the site are left with a skewed version of what really took place, how it took place and where it took place. Again, as I have pointed out over and over, all recorded history of this event will have to be re-written including the 82nd Division History for his version of events to be true.

I stress that the Army has already investigated this, twice and came to the same conclusion both times. Why now do we question this simply because not only does Colonel Mastriano not use either of these accounts in his research, he states that the German accounts are more accurate and provide the necessary clues. That is the only reason any one questions this. If there was no Colonel Mastriano no one would question anything I have laid out here in regards to where the event took place.

So, in that sense Colonel Mastriano has been very successful at duping everyone because he knows few will think it necessary to question a senior US Army intelligence officer. He knows that few will take time to actually read the documents I mention here.

I really hope I can meet some folks on site in France who have never been there and do not know where either site is, give you the documents I mention here and you lead yourself to the site. It is quite clear and very easy to figure out. All of that nonsense about the site being lost and so forth is entirely an SYDE concoction to throw everyone off and create this “debate”.

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[Brad Posey]

I was not there, but my money is on York shooting guys who were running by.

Am I missing something or were there no German wounded?

There is no historical evidence of any Germans killed or wounded by their own friendly fire. In other words; the group of prisoners in the ravine with the patrol, 9 Americans were hit, but no evidence of any Germans getting hit. From all of the American accounts it appears the 20 to 25 dead Germans were found lying on the slope and were certainly killed by York or maybe one or two by other patrol members who may have actually fired during the engagement.

I think your assessment of the “bayonet charge” is about the same as what I laid out earlier. The only Germans wounded in this particular episode was LT Endriss who was shot in the stomach by York and later died of his wounds in American captivity. He is buried in the Buzancy German military cemetery.

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[Brad Posey]

So how much fighting spirit Vollmer showed on that day before surrendering is debatable... However, having said that, I dont think Yorks Patrol would have known that... They may very well have been attacking a bunch of Garde Grenadiers... and instead of surrendering with 135 men, Leutnant Von XXX and his men could have wiped out the patrol... and noone would ever have heard of York and Co again... but they dd not KNOW who tey were up against.


As far as th number of MGs go, I think the number is waaaaaay over the allotment of a regular unit, never mind Landwehr, but the question that bugs me is... "Who counted them?"... the prisonners had been stripped and were off tothe rear.... their equipment spread all over... the salvage guys came days later... who collected the MGs together and counted them?

The accounts are pretty clear that Vollmer and crew surrendered right away as soon as the patrol encountered them. Only a few shots were fired and it looks like there were no casualties. So, it looks like your assessment of Vollmer’s men’s will to fight is very accurate since they did not fight. Later they said they thought they were being attacked by their advance element of a very large American force. The Reich Archiv report tries to demonstrate this by putting the scene of the fight a little more the north west where the main attack of 328th Infantry was taking place. ….Thus the reason Mastriano says the fight is where his monument it.

Those who resisted and who York was fighting were the Bavarian 7th Mineur Company platoon located on the hill just above Vollmer sand his men. These mineurs were not the same caliber men as the Landwehr guys who surrendered right away. It was upon Vollmer’s orders that they did surrender. Same goes for LT Thoma, the commander of the Bavarians who was encountered later….he yelled to Vollmer that he would not allow himself to be taken prisoner, but reluctantly did after Vollmer told him should.


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[Brad Posey]

As far as th number of MGs go, I think the number is waaaaaay over the allotment of a regular unit, never mind Landwehr, but the question that bugs me is... "Who counted them?"... the prisonners had been stripped and were off tothe rear.... their equipment spread all over... the salvage guys came days later... who collected the MGs together and counted them?

This has been addressed here several times now. I agree that there were not 35 MGs in this general area. Maybe after all of the MGs were collected from the entire sector did they come up with this number. In that sense the American report about the number of MGs captured by York is somewhat embellished.

They would have been collected by salvage companies days, maybe even weeks after the battle. It took over two weeks for the 6 Americans killed in the action to be buried.


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[Chris Boonzaier]

There is no historical evidence of any Germans killed or wounded by their own friendly fire. In other words; the group of prisoners in the ravine with the patrol, 9 Americans were hit, but no evidence of any Germans getting hit. From all of the American accounts it appears the 20 to 25 dead Germans were found lying on the slope and were certainly killed by York or maybe one or two by other patrol members who may have actually fired during the engagement.

I think your assessment of the “bayonet charge” is about the same as what I laid out earlier. The only Germans wounded in this particular episode was LT Endriss who was shot in the stomach by York and later died of his wounds in American captivity. He is buried in the Buzancy German military cemetery.

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Thats is an interesting fact... of the Americans hit, over half were wounded, of the Germans hit all were dead.

I have never really had much to do with 45. but is it not unusual to hit 6-7 running targets and every one of them a kill?

best
Chris

[Brad Posey]

I have never really had much to do with 45. but is it not unusual to hit 6-7 running targets and every one of them a kill?

As far as the .45 shooting goes, I assume we are talking about the "bayonet charge". I too find that a little strange, but it is what all of the American reports state and what some of the other men in the patrol say happened; that York was seen firing his pistol and Germans were falling down.

This area is really a small area and very confined, I would almost imagine that they were very close to York and running straight at him. In fact they may not have even seen York and literally ran “off the cliff” so to speak. I could also imagine them being shot from front to rear in that case. They were 4th Company, LIR 120 men and LT Endriss was among them. They were probably running towards the scene of the commotion and had no clue what they were running into. Where I suspect this incident took place is just to the north of the old dam and in the gap between the dam and the western facing slope. Is York was standing approximately where I think he was these Germans probably would never have seen him until it was too late given the commotion and number of prisoners and Germans on the hillside above York. Certainly nothing was text book about this no matter how you look at it. It does appear the recorded history portrays a text book fight, but it was not.

In the end it does not matter the facts are the facts. In the aftermath there were 20 to 25 German dead and 132 German prisoners captured. Without knowing the numbers of the ones who got away the count of Germans involved in this incident is at least 152. There were 17 Americans involved in this fight 6 of who were killed and 3 wounded. Something extraordinary happened and in the end it appears that whatever that extraordinary event was, York played the prominent role in the fighting and the successful outcome for the Americans.

As I stated earlier in this thread and was mentioned here recently had the 17 man American patrol encountered 1916 Germans or a unit other than demoralized Landwehr there may have been a big fight, but we would know nothing of it because afterwards there would have 17 dead Americans found at this site. This is worthy of mention and taking note of, but that is not what happened and when we spend too much time thinking about the “what ifs” it could appear that one may want to downplay what York is credited as doing. I think certain parts of the story need to be “deflated” a bit, but I do not think York deserves any less credit for what he did than he received. One could probably find other reasons to deflate other CMOH holder’s deeds, but nothing should be taken from these men. They all did something extraordinary or they would have never received the award in the first place.

My main goal is to get the correct site sorted out.

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[Brad Posey]

Thats is an interesting fact... of the Americans hit, over half were wounded, of the Germans hit all were dead.

Actually of the 17 Americans 6 were killed and 3 were wounded.

There were certainly German wounded and they are mentioned in the American accounts of the fight as being carried out by the other German prisoners. Their numbers are unknown, only LT Endriss is mentioned by name.

In the casualty lists for the Bavarian 7th Mineur Company states that there are 56 casualties listed for 8 October, 1918; 53 captured including their commander LT Thoma and 3 wounded. Being that the 3 wounded briefly describe the wound they must be some of the men who evaded capture that Rittmeister von Sick reports. It could also be that some of the 53 "captured" may have been killed. Since the Germans did not police up thier dead or even return to this site - ever - with the excption of a small patrol that only reported that Vollmer's command had been killed or captured, the Bavarians may have listed everyone who was not present at the end of the day as captured.

So, all we know for sure about the German casualties are that between 20 to 25 were killed, an unknown number wounded and 132 captured which would include possibly wounded men. How many got away is also not known and we only can show so far that 3 of them were more than likely 7th Mineur men who had also been wounded.

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[Chris Boonzaier]

My wish .....

This is a fantastic thread, and really long, with the views of York, His diarist, the Army, His superiors, his detractors, the Germans, us etc. etc....

The very volume is overwhelming.

I would like to see an article by Brad describing the action as his research shows it took place. Use as a starting point that we agree that Brad has found the correct place and that does not have to be proved.


The study would be best presented in 3 parts.

1) A factual account of the action (Timeline and events) as interprated by Brad, streamlined by leaving out the debate on position and the debate of which accounts were true.
2) A section comparing different versions of the actiontle
3) The methodology and maps used to document the path of the battle.


I think it would kick @SS !

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think certain parts of the story need to be “deflated” a bit, but I do not think York deserves any less credit for what he did than he received.
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I agree, and commend you for your objectivity. I think the problem is there seems to be so much written about this with opinions ranging from "York hid in the fight" to "York singlehandedly captured 35 MGs" that it is difficult for someone learning about it to know which way is up and which way is down.

See my post above... having read through the last 600 or so posts, I would love to see you consolidate your info and give it a three pronged presentation.

Best
Chris