York's famous Machinegun finds a home

[Brad Posey]

The Battlefield Detectives have been busy recently. They returned from a visit to France and have updated thier report on the York fight found on thier web site. They have added a lot of photos, two of which I would like to share here.

First is a "then and now" photo of SGT York at the site in 1919 and one of the Battlefield Detectives standing at the same spot during thier recent visit. The second is a 1919 photo of Murray Savage's grave and the recent photo of the site where we believe Savage's temporary burial was located.

Take a look at thier web site. They went to both Dr. Nolan and the SYDE sites and objectively looked at both group's work.


http://www.battledetective.com/battlestudy19.html


Brad


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[Don D.]

That's good news Brad. Thanks for the update.

[Brad Posey]

Another update on the York front:

I have just obtained a copy of what none of the other researchers in this quest have been able to find or have used in their research. That would be a copy of the unit history of Reserve Infantry Regiment 210. This is the unit, along with the 120th Landwehr Infantry that was eating breakfast as the American patrol, including York, surprised and captured them.

This is very important because the Army officer (SYDE) has based his findings on what he claims is a more accurate understanding of the battle from the German perspective. Well, so far my research has proved differently and as you will see now the history of RIR 210 certainly confirms this.

Here are scans of the book itself. This book has eluded me for over two years, but I finally got my hands on a copy.


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[Brad Posey]

Here is the paragraph that discusses the date in question: 8 October, 1918.

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[Brad Posey]

Here is my rough translation of what this document says. I will have it officially translated by a German court appointed translator very soon, but I do not think it will be too different from what I am presenting now. German speaking viewers feel free to chime in if you see something that does not sound right.

This English translation is from the excerpt from page 504 seen in the scans above.

“At 4 o’clock in the morning of the 8th of October the regiment found itself in a new readiness position in a depression 800 meters west of Chatel, 400 meters north of the Chatel – Bayernruecken Strasse to support the Landwehr Regiment 120 against the attacks on the Hohenbornhoehe and the heights west of Chatel. At 7 o’clock in the morning the Americans attacked after heavy artillery preparation and broke through on the right and left of the Hohenbornhoehe and ended in the rear of our regiment where a great number were taken prisoner. The position was now moved to the Humserberg and subordinated to the Landwehr Infanterie Regiment 120. The 9th (of October) passed without any special events.”

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[Brad Posey]

Here is what the 210th History tells us literally when plotted on the 1918 German map. You will notice that they are clearly closer to Dr. Nolan’s site than the SYDE’s site. Dr. Nolan’s site is in a “hallow” – a ravine - that is located about 100 meters from where the unit history places this unit at the time of the York fight. It is about 600 meters south of where the SYDE says their research plots RIR 210’s position.

As you see in RIR 210’s history the unit was hit from the rear, agreeing with all of the other German accounts I have presented here. This is in stark contrast to the Army officer’s version where he describes RIR 210 and the 120th Landwehr being attacked frontally.


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[Brad Posey]

Here is the same view on the modern map.


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[Brad Posey]

Most importantly, and as I have pointed out several times, there is no mention of the 125th Landwehr in this unit’s history or any of the other German histories that I have read. According to the Army officer it was the 125th Landwehr who York was engaging, but there is no mention of the 125th Landwehr in anything we have read concerning this specific event in German unit histories, war diaries and personal statements from any of the men belonging to units that we know 100% were involved in this incident. They include the 1st Battalion, 120th Landwehr, Reserve Infantry Regiment 210 and the 7th Bavarian Mineur Company. All are in agreement for the location of the fight and they all agree within 100 meters of where Dr. Nolan has found the evidence that indicates the fight occurred at the site he identified during research conducted from 2006 to 2009.

All of the German accounts that I have presented place the SYDE site at least 600 meters further north and on a hillside that lay dead center of the American 2nd Battalion 328th Infantry’s attack. T

he 328th and 82nd Division state clearly in thier documentation of this event that; the York fight occurred on the left flank of their attack – not on the hill directly to thier front - Hill 167. This is where the SYDE (Army officer's) site is.

The SYDE site or “York Spot” as they call it is nothing more than a deliberate distortion of history. The reasons for this are not fully known or understood by me, but anyone who has followed this debate can ascertain for themselves why someone would perpetrate such a fraud.



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[Brad Posey]

Here is what we are dealing with.

A monument at a place where SGT York never was.


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[Don D.]

Thanks Brad. One can speculate why the Army officer's claim has not been studied by the Army Historian but I sure wish they would chime in and end that speculation.... Egos and reputations.......

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Happy Birthday Sgt. York!

Alvin York
12/13/1887 - 9/2/1964
American military hero of World War I
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York
 

[Chris Boonzaier]

Well, events have made this topic a whole lot more interesting for me.... :-)

Just a few thoughts.

1) One thing Modern Machine Gunners overlook is that the MG08 could be used in an indirect fire "Machine Gun Barrage"... Do you think all the concentrations of Cartridges are related to the York action , or also taking neighbouring sectors under fire indirectly?

2) One thing to be remembered... All over the world People/Kids disapear into the woods with guns to go plinking... as Brad says, occasionally there is a battlefield relic with a bullet through it... 2 or more however may mean plinking. 9MM 45. etc all in one place ... Is possibly some school kids in 1920 shooting weapons found in a barn. We can suppose, but it will never be sure.

3) I am wondering about the bayonet charge... Having read the various statements I think there were a group of Germans running through the forest and York shot them. Period.
a) Bayonet charges had gone out of fashion in 1918. It would have been way easier for the germans to shoot.
b) Who adds a bayonet to a long rifle to run through a forest?
c) York mentions shooting them from back to front so they would not realise what he was doing. Surely if they were charging him they could see what he was doing and then shooting them from front to back would have been a better solution?

I am not sure what went down that day, but the polemic makes it all the more interesting!

Good work Brad.

[PlaceOfBayonets]

The bayonet charge does seem a little strange. It could be they expended all their ammunition at york but could not hit him. Not very likely no one in that rush had any ammo at all.

The more likely case is the officer saw that they were facing a determined American solider. Bayonet charges were still used to break the fighting spiret of the enemy. In this case they wanted to rattle York's cage because small arms fire was not doing the job. I believe this is the reason the officer ordered the charge to be made.

In modern times it seems in Iraq 03 during the early part of the invasion some Marines made a bayonet charge agaisnt some lightly dug in Iraqi positions in a palm tree grove. The Marine Commander in an interview made reference to the military vaule of looking the enemy in the eye and sticking a baynet into their guts making the war and the attack the Iraqi's made very personal.

W.

Well, events have made this topic a whole lot more interesting for me.... :-)

Just a few thoughts.

1) One thing Modern Machine Gunners overlook is that the MG08 could be used in an indirect fire "Machine Gun Barrage"... Do you think all the concentrations of Cartridges are related to the York action , or also taking neighbouring sectors under fire indirectly?

2) One thing to be remembered... All over the world People/Kids disapear into the woods with guns to go plinking... as Brad says, occasionally there is a battlefield relic with a bullet through it... 2 or more however may mean plinking. 9MM 45. etc all in one place ... Is possibly some school kids in 1920 shooting weapons found in a barn. We can suppose, but it will never be sure.

3) I am wondering about the bayonet charge... Having read the various statements I think there were a group of Germans running through the forest and York shot them. Period.
a) Bayonet charges had gone out of fashion in 1918. It would have been way easier for the germans to shoot.
b) Who adds a bayonet to a long rifle to run through a forest?
c) York mentions shooting them from back to front so they would not realise what he was doing. Surely if they were charging him they could see what he was doing and then shooting them from front to back would have been a better solution?

I am not sure what went down that day, but the polemic makes it all the more interesting!

Good work Brad.

[Hoss]

I find the whole incident strange especially the capture of all those MG,s. The supposed bayonet charge of fourth rate troops who by that stage of the War where surrendering in thousands all along the Western Front.
The 2nd LDW was a Sector Division meaning most of its younger men were removed to more important parts of the Western Front being replaced by older Landsturm men and the 45th Res. who according to my ref. by that stage was heavily infiltrated by Bolsheviks.

I champion Brad,s research but I fear it will become controversial and spill over into 'Political correct' Army Histories if it is,nt already.
One thing I dont find strange is the site of the monument. Is it unusaul to find a better spot (if it is) when laying a memorial?

Eric

[Brad Posey]

Thanks for the comments, discussion and questions, let me see if I can add to this to hopefully clear a few things up I will address each separately.