Rare Hitlerjugend Cufftitle

[wolfslair44]

Gents,

Thought I would show this rare version I have acquired from Martin Stiles. 6 strand aluminum wire braid as featured from Dave Delich's collection. Hope you enjoy.

[wolfslair44]

3 more.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hello Scott,

hmmmm i never liked this so-called "RZM prototype", as - oh strangely - this model has all the caracteristics of the Groch 6-strand cufftitles, including the not horizontal text... Now i'm wondering if only three models ("Langemarck", "Wallonien" and "Fallschirmjäger") were really made, and not four or more.

The fact that BeVo-like 2 "Hitlerjugend" cufftitles are easily available (despite they are overpriced due to the "hype" around the division fights in Normandy you can find some on many dealer websites) is maybe an explaination why so few were proposed by Groch... It looked maybe more suspicious than for the other three models.

It is strange that David Delich didn't connect the dots with the possible and infamous Groch hoard.

As the "Hitlerjugend" 6-strand RZM model has the same caracteristics as the Groach cufftitles, i would be very very very cautious with it.

"late war most wanted units" + "RZM" + "6-strand" + "not horizontal text" = red alert/no go !

I'm also not a fan of the "unofficial private cufftitle locally purchased before the Summer of 1944 for studio picture" scenario for this model...
The pictures we have are showing crude models.

More on the "Wallonien" cufftitle here (I now have 12 of this one in archive) :
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=978427

I'm including below the text provided by Martin, please note that the cufftitle is coming from an "Hohenstaufen" veteran estate, and it is not confirmed that the cufftitle is period or post-war, nor that the "Hohenstaufen" guy was in the "Hitlerjugend" division before or after the Normandy fights.

See You

Vince

[Zauberflöte]

Similar but not the same as the one published of course.

[collector19]

Similar but not the same as the one published of course.

That's why I did not pull the trigger on this one

Gesendet von meinem SNE-LX1 mit Tapatalk

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

the "error" is more or less pronounced on the other Groch cufftitles (the "Wallonien" cufftitle below is the worse i found so far), some have an horizontal text without problem, some have the horizontal text too much on the top of the 6-strand cufftitle.

In my opinion it is not a coincidence, but collectors and readers can choose their opinion on this interesting topic.

See You

Vince

[TK GUY]

Hj

Hi Vince,

Great information and examples. Thanks very much for posting it.

Paul

[Ian Hulley]

In my opinion it is not a coincidence, but collectors and readers can choose their opinion on this interesting topic.

Indeed

[herrgeezer]

Vince, your knowledge on cuff titles is very impressive! I had never heard of the Groach hoard. Can you expand on this? Searching the forum produced nothing for me. Thanks!

[Max Wünsche]

Great information Vince....

I saw this listed and was tempted myself and was actually quite surprised to see the price was very reasonable compared to other HJ ct's I have seen for sale - for the reasons you have already stated...

One cannot be an expert in all areas of this hobby so to have such detailed analysis available to collectors to help navigate the minefield is first class..!!! Well done Vince....
.
.
.

[sutka]

i think i like it

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

courtesy of the highly recommended book by Ulric Woodhams "Collecting Third Reich SS & Political cuffbands" volume 1, here is basically the story of the Groch hoard.

If you are into fakes and scams, the whole story smells bad from the start.
You will notice that many unconfirmed things are implied, not counting the abuse of arguments of authority.

Some comments on the story told by Mr. Woodhams (who believe in the hoard, as he bought and sold some himself).

1) I don't know what is "small quantity", but i already have, 50 years after, 12 "Wallonien" 6-strand cufftitles in my archive... And i only started to look a few months ago. Probabilities tell that dozen, if not hundred, of those cufftitles were sold if we are able to see them so frequently for sale (yes i know that many old collectors are currently selling their collections).
"Langemarck" & "Fallschirmjäger" are rarer (i have only a very few in archives), but i saw some sold for "cheap" prices.
I will probably work more closely on the "Langemarck" cufftitle in the future.

2) It is confirmed by Siegfried Milius himself, the big boss of the SS-Fallschirmjäger, that no permission was given for an "SS-Fallschirmjäger/Fallschirmjäger" cufftitle. All the models are or period homemade unauthorized models made for studio pictures (the wear was of course forbidden), or are post-war fantasy/fakes.

3) My own hypothesis is that the crook that used blank RZM 6-strand cufftitle to produce at least those three models ("Wallonien", "Langemarck", "Fallschirmjäger") at least chose the "Langemarck" title because it could be easily copied from the original 7-strand model (2 variations exist, fully originals). I suspect that "Wallonien" was also chosen because the "Wallonien" BeVo models are amongst the rarest.
And the "Fallschirmjäger" title was chosen because it is soooo exotic !

4) I do not know Mr. Groch, i don't know if he is directly involved or not in what it is for me a scam, but the fact that he is "a respected researcher" is an argument of authority. Many "respected researchers" were burned with the Konrad Kujau Hitler diaries scam, everyone can be fooled, the fact that you are respected or not is not important here.

5) I don't know if it was possible to "purchase militaria" in Czechoslovakia in the 60/70's. What i see is that many scams are using the "i was the first to purchase this rare item in Russia/Eastern Block before everyone else".
I don't know anything about Jiri Blazek.
I don't know if the price of those Groch cufftitles was cheaper than confirmed original cufftitles.

6) I don't know who is the crook, maybe Groch and Jarek were fooled by someone else.
At least if the 6-strand blank RZM cufftitles are legit, Groch is actually not lying about the cufftitles themselves... Only maybe about the texts written on them.

7) To say that "those 6-strand cufftitles have nothing to do with the "known" other reproductions of the period" is like comparing a bad fake with a very bad fake... This argument is stupid.
If the blank 6-strand RZM cuffitles are legit, then of course they are "better" than all the 60/70 fakes...
This is the same story as for the Croix de Guerre Légionnaire : crooks started to use real Croix de Guerre 1939 cross as main part of their fakes, adding front and back bogus parts (original CDGL is using a Croix de Guerre 1939 cross on which special parts were added).

7) Original 6-strand and 5/6-strand RZM cufftitles are confirmed to exist, mainly from the early 30's ("Sanitäts-Abteilung", "Adolf Hitler", "Deutschland", "SS-Schule Tölz"...). It is not very honest to use that argument without adding that those real cufftitles were from the 30's... The 6-strand models should not technically being used in 1943-1944.

To conclude, it is implausible (but of course not impossible) to have stock of 30's blank RZM cufftitles used in 1944 for a division that will award them in fall 1944. There is still a lot of historical work to do on why no cufftitle was given starting from late 1943-early 1944, but it may be that the division needed to get its first blood before being awarded its cufftitle.
Also in 1944, the machine-woven cufftitles were clearly easier and cheaper to produce, the best way to virtually provide thousands of "Hitlerjugend" ones, even if the model was not widely awarded to the members of the division.

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

I saw this listed and was tempted myself and was actually quite surprised to see the price was very reasonable compared to other HJ ct's I have seen for sale - for the reasons you have already stated...

Martin proposed a "Fallschirmjäger" Groch cufftitle in March 2018 from the Mollo collection for 985 gbp, which is very cheap indeed...
I don't know the price of the two "Wallonien" Groch cufftitles that he proposed in January 2018.

If i was collecting cufftitles, and if i had the money to buy many original cufftitles, i will be interested by buying and studying fake or suspicious models even more if their prices are way cheaper than originals.

I will of course advice collectors to buy confirmed originals (BeVo like 2 "Hitlerjugend" cufftitle for example), and to think twice before deciding to buy items that could be - afterall - not perfectly genuine (and hard to sell back).

Caveat Emptor.

See You

Vince

[herrgeezer]

Thank you for the info, Vince. I guess if I had searched the forum by the correct spelling I would have found other posts on this type.

Still, thanks for expanding on the information.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

you're welcome !

The "Hitlerjugend" cufftitle that started this topic was originally proposed for around 1400 euros, thanks to one WAF member for confirming the price.

See You

Vince