Rare Hitlerjugend Cufftitle

[wolfslair44]

Thanks to everyone that has commented so far, and to Vince for all his research. Such great stuff. I'm wondering though why with the HJ CT, if it was 'faked' and picked up by Groch, why there would be only 2 that we know of that have surfaced for sale over all these years?

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

like i already said, the fact that "BeVo" like 2 "Hitlerjugend" cufftitles are quite common (many are currently for sale on various websites, despite they are imo overpriced due to the (in)famous fights in Normandy) is probably part of the explaination why not many are available on the market.

Maybe only a few were made, and few surfaced over the years.

"Wallonien" "BeVo" cufftitles are very elusive, it can maybe explain why many are available. "Langemarck" may have been a way to "milk" the whole lot, "because 6 and 7-strand are identical" (which they are not).

Another explaination may be that the "Hitlerjugend" cufftitles made were all kept by the buyers, but i'm not happy with that explaination.

All in all, even if the "Hitlerjugend" cufftitles may be period, they were certainly not the official model, nor were they authorized for production and wear.

See You

Vince

[sutka]

as always Vince the best
mark

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

i forgot to ad that the two original RZM "Langemarck" cufftitles variations are well identified, and many of the available oiginals still have their RZM stickers.

To the contrary of the Groch/6-strand RZM cufftitles, to date i didn't find any with RZM stickers (yet ?).

Also the "Wallonien" title could also have been chosen due to the fact that Degrelle and the "Wallonie" are amongst the most famous stories of the Waffen-SS collaboration in Europe, and that Degrelle was still alive up to 1994. And the lack of original "BeVo" models in the market was probably already a problem for collectors/dealers.

If the hypothesis that the Groch hoard are "original blank RZM 30's 6-strand cufftitles "pimped" by an unknown crook with added stitched text" is finally 100% confirmed, it will not be the only case that existed, i heard of other similar stories in Europe.

See You

Vince

[wolfslair44]

Really interesting discussion and Vince very well may be right in his analysis. He has done a lot of work for this Forum and I thank him so much for his efforts. Have 'large' numbers of the other Groch CTs been coming up for sale? I ask, because this HJ cuff, outside of Delich's, seems to be the only other example. I would have thought if 'faked' we would see more than two over the past number of decades.

Any other CT experts out there care to weigh in?

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

an uncommon fake is still a fake...
To say that only two known (or even one known) RZM "Hitlerjugend" cufftitles exist doesn't imply that they are legit "because they are ultra rare".

There is no info on how many cufftitles Groch found/sold. And i doubt anyone will be able to provide any estimate, because it will only prove that it was a real scam, with dozen if not hundred cufftitles sold.

To have in archive 12 Groch "Wallonien" cufftitles near 50 years after the lot was found/lot imply that dozen (if not hundred) of "Wallonien" cufftitles were sold... (i have 2 "Fallschirmjäger", and 1 "Langemarck", but it not proves that more are not rotting in collections. Same for the "Hitlerjugend" cufftitle. I must precise that for now i mainly focussed on the "Wallonien" cufftitles, not on the others).

I think that i gave enough infos on why we can say that there is a strong probability that the RZM "Hitlerjugend" 6-strand cufftitle has the same features as the other Groch cufftitles.
No matter the "rarity" (which can be infact wrong, if dozen are in collection and kept by collectors), the fact that 1 or 100 exist will have the same results : still probably fake.

Here the thing to check is NOT the "rarity" but the features that are similar to the other Groch cufftitles...

See You

Vince

[TomH]

i think i like it

I believe both band and embroidery are pre-45. Whether it is WSS/12HJ is another matter.

I first saw the group this came with at Reichertshofen in 2012 and the HJ band added nothing (or indeed detracted) from the grouping. When I'm back from the SOS I will try and find a photo of the group before it was split.

Tom

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

I believe both band and embroidery are pre-45. Whether it is WSS/12HJ is another matter.

Can you tell us more about your faith on this cufftitle, especially your hypothesis on :

- how do you explain the use on an early 1930's 6-strand cufftitle for a late war unit cufftitle (it is sold as a twin to the Delich cufftitle said to be for the W-SS division) ?

- how do you explain the non horizontal text, typical error found in other Groch models that will never been authorized by the RZM (obvious lack of quality) ?

- for which unit could this cufftitle be made, knowing that it bears the (Groch) caracteristics ?
Knowing that it couldn't be for the Kriegsmarine "Hitlerjugend", which had their own very rare late war cufftitle (one was recently found and presented on the WAF).

- what is your take on the Groch hoard, especially the "UK connection" to many dealers (Woodhams, Mollo...) ?

Note : those questions are not asked in an ironical way.

And thanks i advance for the additional pictures and story about this cufftitle.

See You

Vince

[Max Wünsche]

I am only commenting on this thread as I too had the opportunity to purchase this cufftitle and was not privy to the information that Vince has since drawn a light on.

For me the red flag was the price, why if indeed it is such a rare variation, why was the price so low...?

I have seen HJ cufftitles sell for 2500+ very quickly due to them being much sought after. Now if such a cufftitle was indisputably pre-45 and as rare as stated then I would have though the price to be commensurate to its perceived rarity.

I for one would be very happy for Scott if information comes to light that proves unequivocally that this is what it claims to be.

.
.
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[TomH]

Hi,



Can you tell us more about your faith on this cufftitle, especially your hypothesis on :

- how do you explain the use on an early 1930's 6-strand cufftitle for a late war unit cufftitle (it is sold as a twin to the Delich cufftitle said to be for the W-SS division) ?

- how do you explain the non horizontal text, typical error found in other Groch models that will never been authorized by the RZM (obvious lack of quality) ?

- for which unit could this cufftitle be made, knowing that it bears the (Groch) caracteristics ?
Knowing that it couldn't be for the Kriegsmarine "Hitlerjugend", which had their own very rare late war cufftitle (one was recently found and presented on the WAF).

- what is your take on the Groch hoard, especially the "UK connection" to many dealers (Woodhams, Mollo...) ?

Note : those questions are not asked in an ironical way.

And thanks i advance for the additional pictures and story about this cufftitle.

See You

Vince

I'm not sure I have the answers you are looking for Vince, like you most of this is hypothesis and belief.

It's possible a batch of early bands were used up late war. It's similar but not identical to the DD band (I prefer this one as I like the aesthetics of the "j" and "g" going into the strands - but that's just me). There are other examples of bands that were worn that are not 100% perfect - many hand-embroidered of course but not impossible that a stitching machine would be set incorrectly. This may explain why all the so-called Groch bands were never issued but the featured HJ band clearly was worn.


As to which unit could have worn it, this can only be speculation, (possibly Flak?), I refer to the original grouping which centred around a young WSS soldier in Hohenstaufen (with Soldbuch) which entirely stood up and yet had this random HJ band which added nothing (so not a humped up grouping) or indeed detracted from the total. The soldbuch gives no indication that he served in 12HJ. Sometimes you just have to see these things to know.

The Fallschirmjager band you referred to is mine. It originated from Andrew Mollo around 1991 and thought to sell it as I was clearing out all my mint unissued bands in favour of just worn/tunic removed and about £1,000 given the prices that the Wallonien RZM had been sold for seemed about right. I've never thought of Andrew Mollo as a dealer, he had an extensive collection much of which he sold in the very late 80s and early 90s to fund the renovation of his property in France.


Questions over Ulric's credentials continue but I am at a loss to see why his definitive book on spotting fakes (far superior to Angolia's or any other), would devote so much space to the so-called Groch hoard when so few appear to be in existence. If he were a party to the scam why not name "Hitler Jugend" along with "Langemarck", Fallschirmjager" and "Wallonien"?

The bevo Wallonien is also not so rare anymore, whereas this would a couple of years ago have been a Euro10K band, the hoard of about 12, (yes another hoard!), found in Germany 18 months ago as made these much cheaper - one has been available via Weitze for E3K for some time. The Hitler Jugend Bevo 2 (or economy bevo) has been steady for about 12 - 15 years in the £1800 - 2200 range although of course some dealers put crazy prices on in the hope someone will buy.

I don't think this will ever be conclusively proved one way or another. All bands/insignia fall into one of three categories:

1) the unquestioningly real
2) the absolute fake
3) those that sit in between

these bands sit in 3) and I would like to see that they don't morph into 2) as part of some received wisdom (unless of course some incontrovertible proof arises).

They are perhaps a little like the Charlemagne band which I know you dislike (with a similar empirical weight of evidence to support you) but which persists in being generally considered real. Interesting that in the Charlemagne thread you posit that these may have been made in the Protectorate (for the Engineer company) and the Groch bands also originate from the Protectorate. Probably just a coincidence.

Let the debate continue

Tom

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hello Tom,

thanks for your very long reply.

1) about the original "Hohenstaufen" lot, i will say that it seemed far more logical to have the original veteran having bought the "Hitlerjugend" Groch cufftitle in the 70's, than to have a veteran been able to get a period original cufftitle of another unit which was famously known for having his cufftitle awarded late in the war to a small portion of the soldiers of the division.

2) on why we don't find more "Hitlerjugend", "Langemarck" and "Fallschirmjäger" cufftitles, i gave a long reply that i will again shortly explain here :
- "Hitlerjugend" : as only one original type of cufftitle was confirmed, it would have been very suspicious to produce as much cuffitle as the dozen of "Wallonien" models (produced because the original BeVo cufftitle is impossible to find, i suspect even in the 70's).
- "Langemarck" : the two original RZM 7-strand models were already well known on the market, and were perfectly identified. The production of a few 6-strand cufftitles was a way to "authenticate" the other Groch models (especially the "Wallonien" model which was clearly the one that seemed to have been made and sold to dozen of copies).
- "Fallschirmjager" : from veteran testimonies (especially Siegried Milius), it was already known that no cufftitle was made, therefore at best it will make the Groch cufftitle an "unofficial and unauthorized" cufftitle, which may put some suspicion on the rest of the Groch hoard.

3) The original BeVo cuffitles are still impossible to find... Because two models exist. The one that was found a few months ago with other BeVo cufftitles is was i call a late-war variation which was imo produced in the Protectorate.
The "Wallonien" cufftitle hoard has the same caracteristics as the "Das Reich" or the "Charlemagne" cufftitle and a few other models.
The "real" BeVo model (the only one identified until the recent hoard was surfaced) is still one of the rarest models.

4) I must to point out that i changed my mind on the "Charlemagne" Delich cufftitle after identifying the BeVo late war variation cufftitle family.
It happened at the same time as the "Das Reich" and the "Wallonien" cufftitles surfaced. It was now clear that the Delich cufftitle was made by the same manufacturer as the "Wallonien" and the "Das Reich" models. Manufacturer which may be from the Protectorate indeed...
I made an extensive study on the "Charlemagne" cufftitle 1 year ago that was planned for an English book on the French-SS in Berlin but which was published only in Polish and is planned in Italian.
It will also be published in French i think, and maybe in English, probably in the Military Advisor.

See You

Vince

[Brandon93]

Hitlerjugend Cuff RZM Weitze

Hello this is my first reply,for WAF.

On the site of Helmut Weitze you can see under waffen ss , the same RZM
Hitler Jugend cuff ttle cut lenght to 20,5 cm (2500 Euro)
From the possesion of untersturmfuhrer Willy Wallwei, Panzerjagerabteilung the 12th SS Panzer division Hitler Youth.
This cuff llooks worn and orginal to me., or is it a Groch Cuff title.
Whats your opnion ?

Thanks

Brandon

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hello Brandon,

many thanks for your first post, and for the discovery you made.

You are right, this "Hitlerjugend" cufftitle is the cousin of the one proposed by Martin, it seemed to be a Groch RZM model with 6-strand border.

The story is also similar (taken from the estate of a veteran of the "Hitlerjugend"). Again the story may be legit (the cufftitle was found in this estate), but there is absolutely no proof that this cufftitle was made pre-1945, and that Wallwei got it during the war.
He may have bought it in the post-war years, as so many "Hitlerjugend" division members never had it after the Normandy campaign.

I don't know the history of Wallwei during WW2, maybe he was enlisted in 1943, maybe later.

You can also notice that strangely the pictures proposed by Weitze are of very low quality, no one can zoom to check the details, or count the silver wires near the border.
I'm not saying that it was done on purpose, but the lack of details and infos need to be noticed.

Now at least it seemed to confirm that the hypothesis that Groch may have found/provided "Hitlerjugend" cufftitles is more and more plausible.

Now is the sale of this cufftitle happening by chance or not ?
No one can be sure.

I'm adding the pictures of this cufftitle, courtesy of Weitze.

See You

Vince

[TomH]

Hi Vince,

this band was brought into the SOS a few weeks ago with a convincing backstory, I handled it and photographed it (see below for hopefully slightly better photos) before Helmut bought it.

The consensus amongst the substantial number of established and experienced collectors that saw this band at the show is that it is original and pre-1945 issue.

Tom

[sutka]

it look very convincing but i think Vince is quite correct