Rare Hitlerjugend Cufftitle

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

1)
Many thanks for posting additional pictures of this cufftitle.

2)
Do you have more infos on the "backstory" of this cufftitle ?

3)
What was the price that was asked for this "Hitlerjugend" cufftitle ?
I suspect that Weitze bought it to make some money with it, probably around 1500 usd ?

The similar cufftitle you have for sale on Hannah's Reich was for sale for around 1400 gbp, and i suspect that Martin is taking a small fee to sell it. So your price was maybe around 1100 gbp, which is a bargain for a such "rarity", no matter the condition.
I just saw that another collector ("JVH") decided to put the trigger on it as Scott decided to cancel his order (which is a good idea imo)...

4)

The consensus amongst the substantial number of established and experienced collectors that saw this band at the show is that it is original and pre-1945 issue.

Tom, i'm sorry, but i can't let you say that without jumping from my seat...

I would love to hear more about those anonym "established and experienced collectors".
Every reader can understand that this argument is proving nothing.
The fact that big names in the collecting community "believe" in them is like saying "i believe that the Smurfs village exist". No one can proof that it is not true... This is a famous fallacious argument ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance ).

Unfortunately David Delich didn't provide any info (that we are aware of) on why he think that his cufftitle is original.

In this topic, I provided as much infos and hypothesis as possible on why i think that :
a) Groch cufftitles were a massive scam,
b) "Hitlerjugend" 6-strand RZM cufftitles may be Groch models/no logic to have them made in 1943 or 1944/they are not officially made.

Nothing credible was put on the market by the "believers".
I know that your opinion is - in a way - partial, as your cufftitle is for sale on Martin website.

By the way, again i'm not implying that there is a conspiracy by dealers, those cufftitles may have been in veteran estates, but there is no proof to date that they are pre-1945, and that the veterans didn't bought them post-war.
But far too many collectors are still thinking that dealers/advanced collectors can't do mistakes.
And this is why many people are consigning items through them... To use their notoriety to sell their items... Even if the items is "suspicious"...

And we all know that collectors that have to sell "suspicious" items may be interested by "defending" their stuff.
Remember the Blutorden prototype dirty story, with Bob Coleman discretly putting his suspicious Emile Maurice lot for sale on auction a few months after the scam was debunked ?
It is not new, people that are scammed want sometimes to be able to get their money back from someone else.

So i'm still waiting infos that can tell us that :
- those 6-strand RZM "Hitlerjugend" cufftitles were officially made before 1945
- that those cufftitles are related or not related to Groch hoard/Delich cufftitle

Fairytales can fool anyone, remember the Blutorden prototype, the Champagne SS runes, the pink smock, the Kriegsmarine French badges...
And unfortunately all were heavily promoted by WAF members/famous collectors. Everyone can make mistake.

Helmut Weitze can't be perfect in every deal he makes... He knows a lot, but a) he can't be a specialist in everything and b) he has a business to run.
Afterall, all is about money, for collectors and for dealers...
History is just taking a small part in the mind of many. It is a small element of decision.

If Helmut Weitze is not aware of the Groch controversy (to say the least...), if he is only believing in the Ulric Woodhams opinion or the opinion of David Delich published in Gordon Williamson book, then it understandable that he will buy it to be able to make a nice benefit from the sale of this cufftitle. It is understandable.

The only disappointment i have with the cufftitle on Weitze website is that strangely the pictures are in unusual low quality, even if you are a member...
Usually you can download very nice high-quality pictures, but for this "new" item, you get only low pictures... Hmmmm, i wonder why...
Could it be to "hide" his caracteristics ? It may just be an error.

5)
why all those "advanced collectors" didn't bought this cufftitle if it is an ultra rare pre-1945 original ?
You can reply to me that "this cufftitle is cut short and was removed from a tunic"...

Well well well, could it be another trick by the faker ?
As i explained in the past, to provide only cufftitles that looked to have been in wear is a very good idea !

With only the BeVo-like 2 "Hitlerjugend" model known to be original and to have been in wear, it is logical that crooks may provide "worn cufttitles" to "prove" that other rmodels existed and are therefore "legit" too (at least they "look legit") !
This is why you get so many fake cufftitles found on remnants of tunics/uniforms, so they can "look so real"...
Too many examples posted on the WAF in the past years...

Is it possible that the Delich RZM 6-strand cufftitle may be also "taken from a tunic", which was the main credible fact so that Delich can say that "it was an original" ?

It should be noted that Ulric Woodhams said that some cufftitles from the Groch hoard were cut (or damaged) when the bundles where opened. Which is strange, as Ulric said previously that "a small quantity" of cufftitles was found.

To conclude, I know that this topic will not help collectors who want to dump their Groch cufftitles, but i'm still sure they will find people.
Even if the cufftitles are "suspicious", collectors can still be interested in them, even knowing that they may be post-war.
I already paid more than 200 euros for some fake Croix de Guerre Légionnaire for my collection of fakes, so i can understand that others want those cufftitles if they have enough money for it.

To see so many Groch cufftitles dumped on the market (remember, they are said to be "rare", despite said to have been found in "bundles"), may explain that finally some collectors do not trust them as they did before.

See You

Vince

[sutka]

guys
here is one from my collection
very convincing but i have no prof
maybe one day
severer experts look in to with possitive reactions but still

[sutka]

1

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

i will add a few infos to the topic in the next post.

First, i noticed that i actually had pictures of the Horst Adomat grouping which was proposed at the end of July 2016 on Hannah's Reich.
In this lot was included the "Hitlerjugend" cufftitle that Scott wanted to buy.

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

one of the most famous studio picture showing a young "Hitlerjugend" volunteer with an unofficial "Hitlerjugend cufftitle. The date of the shot is unknown.

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

thanks sutka for the pictures of your "Hitlerjugend" cufftitle.

It can be
- or a period original made unofficially before the Normandy campaign (for studio pictures, like the one i posted in my previous post)
- or a post-war reproduction/fake, maybe some members can comment on it ?

I forgot to add something from my last long reply.
It is the hypothesis that the 6-strand RZM "Hitlerjugend" cufftitle may be unofficial cufftitles privately made by members of the division for their studio pictures in uniform.

The problem is that probabilities tell us that it is very unplausible to find three very similar (if not identical, check below Delich, "Willy Wallwei" Weitze, and "Horst Adomat" Hannah's Reich) cufftitles surfacing decades after, when at the time only a very few privately made cufftitles may have been manufactured by this unknown tailorshop.
Even if 100 or 200 private homemade unofficial cufftitles were made and sold to "Hitlerjugend" members, it is very unplausible to find three of them...
Not counting the fact that you need to believe that none of those 100 to 200 young members were caught by officers about those unofficial cufftitles used for private studio pictures.

See You

Vince

[TomH]

Hi,

1)
Many thanks for posting additional pictures of this cufftitle.

2)
Do you have more infos on the "backstory" of this cufftitle ?

3)
What was the price that was asked for this "Hitlerjugend" cufftitle ?
I suspect that Weitze bought it to make some money with it, probably around 1500 usd ?

The similar cufftitle you have for sale on Hannah's Reich was for sale for around 1400 gbp, and i suspect that Martin is taking a small fee to sell it. So your price was maybe around 1100 gbp, which is a bargain for a such "rarity", no matter the condition.
I just saw that another collector ("JVH") decided to put the trigger on it as Scott decided to cancel his order (which is a good idea imo)...

4)


Tom, i'm sorry, but i can't let you say that without jumping from my seat...

I would love to hear more about those anonym "established and experienced collectors".
Every reader can understand that this argument is proving nothing.
The fact that big names in the collecting community "believe" in them is like saying "i believe that the Smurfs village exist". No one can proof that it is not true... This is a famous fallacious argument ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance ).

Unfortunately David Delich didn't provide any info (that we are aware of) on why he think that his cufftitle is original.

In this topic, I provided as much infos and hypothesis as possible on why i think that :
a) Groch cufftitles were a massive scam,
b) "Hitlerjugend" 6-strand RZM cufftitles may be Groch models/no logic to have them made in 1943 or 1944/they are not officially made.

Nothing credible was put on the market by the "believers".
I know that your opinion is - in a way - partial, as your cufftitle is for sale on Martin website.

By the way, again i'm not implying that there is a conspiracy by dealers, those cufftitles may have been in veteran estates, but there is no proof to date that they are pre-1945, and that the veterans didn't bought them post-war.
But far too many collectors are still thinking that dealers/advanced collectors can't do mistakes.
And this is why many people are consigning items through them... To use their notoriety to sell their items... Even if the items is "suspicious"...

And we all know that collectors that have to sell "suspicious" items may be interested by "defending" their stuff.
Remember the Blutorden prototype dirty story, with Bob Coleman discretly putting his suspicious Emile Maurice lot for sale on auction a few months after the scam was debunked ?
It is not new, people that are scammed want sometimes to be able to get their money back from someone else.

So i'm still waiting infos that can tell us that :
- those 6-strand RZM "Hitlerjugend" cufftitles were officially made before 1945
- that those cufftitles are related or not related to Groch hoard/Delich cufftitle

Fairytales can fool anyone, remember the Blutorden prototype, the Champagne SS runes, the pink smock, the Kriegsmarine French badges...
And unfortunately all were heavily promoted by WAF members/famous collectors. Everyone can make mistake.

Helmut Weitze can't be perfect in every deal he makes... He knows a lot, but a) he can't be a specialist in everything and b) he has a business to run.
Afterall, all is about money, for collectors and for dealers...
History is just taking a small part in the mind of many. It is a small element of decision.

If Helmut Weitze is not aware of the Groch controversy (to say the least...), if he is only believing in the Ulric Woodhams opinion or the opinion of David Delich published in Gordon Williamson book, then it understandable that he will buy it to be able to make a nice benefit from the sale of this cufftitle. It is understandable.

The only disappointment i have with the cufftitle on Weitze website is that strangely the pictures are in unusual low quality, even if you are a member...
Usually you can download very nice high-quality pictures, but for this "new" item, you get only low pictures... Hmmmm, i wonder why...
Could it be to "hide" his caracteristics ? It may just be an error.

5)
why all those "advanced collectors" didn't bought this cufftitle if it is an ultra rare pre-1945 original ?
You can reply to me that "this cufftitle is cut short and was removed from a tunic"...

Well well well, could it be another trick by the faker ?
As i explained in the past, to provide only cufftitles that looked to have been in wear is a very good idea !

With only the BeVo-like 2 "Hitlerjugend" model known to be original and to have been in wear, it is logical that crooks may provide "worn cufttitles" to "prove" that other rmodels existed and are therefore "legit" too (at least they "look legit") !
This is why you get so many fake cufftitles found on remnants of tunics/uniforms, so they can "look so real"...
Too many examples posted on the WAF in the past years...

Is it possible that the Delich RZM 6-strand cufftitle may be also "taken from a tunic", which was the main credible fact so that Delich can say that "it was an original" ?

It should be noted that Ulric Woodhams said that some cufftitles from the Groch hoard were cut (or damaged) when the bundles where opened. Which is strange, as Ulric said previously that "a small quantity" of cufftitles was found.

To conclude, I know that this topic will not help collectors who want to dump their Groch cufftitles, but i'm still sure they will find people.
Even if the cufftitles are "suspicious", collectors can still be interested in them, even knowing that they may be post-war.
I already paid more than 200 euros for some fake Croix de Guerre Légionnaire for my collection of fakes, so i can understand that others want those cufftitles if they have enough money for it.

To see so many Groch cufftitles dumped on the market (remember, they are said to be "rare", despite said to have been found in "bundles"), may explain that finally some collectors do not trust them as they did before.

See You

Vince

Hi Vince,

thanks for posting the original Hohenstaufen grouping - I couldn't locate the photo I had where it was all attached to a display board. In answer to your points:

1) You're welcome.

2) I don't have any further information on the backstory that I am able to divulge.

3) I'm not going to disclose what it originally sold for - I think it's a reasonable assumption that if a dealer buys something at a show they will sell it on for a profit, they do not run their business as charities.

Last time I looked my band was on Martin's site for £985 not £1400. Whatever commercial arrangement may (or indeed may not) exist between Martin and myself is frankly no one else's business. As it's my band I will confirm that I bought it for £300 in the late 80s/early 90s. It was put on at £985 because that was roughly what the Wallonien RZMs were fetching.

Far from trying to "offload" this band it was merely part of a much larger group of bands that I decided to part with. If it doesn't sell I am quite happy to return it to my collection. As the Hitler Jugend band under discussion was never originally claimed to be part of the Groch discovery (as the Wallonien/Langemarck/Fallschrimjaeger were) I don't see that I am partial in its discussion but whatever......

Also, you confuse "rare" with "desirable" which has much more influence on value. I've never said these are either and I remain of the opinion that these Hitler Jugend bands may have been produced for the Hitler Jugend and not the 12thSS.l

4) It would be grossly unfair of me to start naming people on this forum. Not only could many of them care less about this eternal debate but no doubt something would be pulled from a distant archive to prove that they were once fallible which would in turn be held as "proof" of something or other. Anyone who attends the SOS and similar shows will be able to make an educated guess as to who the people in question are.


I'm not going to comment further on this - I salute the incredible amount of time you are able to give to this (and other matters) on WAF - I wish I had the same.

One question from me though - do you think the RZM Wallonien posted by Luc in this thread is "good" or "bad" or "Groch"? It wasn't really clear.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=318350

Tom

[Bob Hritz]

I would like to have the Wallonien 6 strand title, but at a low price. I bought my Fallschirmjaeger, back in the early 1970s for $35.00 when that was the value for most cuff titles. I kept it because I never thought there would be any proof of authenticity, but that the band material was consistant with known original 6 strand cuff titles.

I do not believe anyone will sell me a Wallonien 6 strand for $200.00, but I would offer that. That, alone, tells you where I stand on these titles.

Bob Hritz

[istra63]

Thanks for showing that cuff sutka
For some unbeknown reason I like this cuff
Must be mindful that the Hitlerjugend formed up to
combat strength in Belgium, then France.

[sutka]

thanks Istra
it feels even better in hand inspection
please note letter H with high cross bar
on all knowns fakes thats is the first thing to fail cross bar placed low

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hello Tom,

Thanks for your long reply, and the additional infos you provided.

1)
I must point out that as I previouslay said, this is perfectly ok that people “believe” in those Groch cufftitles.
My main problem is that I have difficulties to find plausible infos that may tell me that the Groch/6-strand cufftitles may be legit afterall.
This is why I’m trying to find believers that may provide infos that may refute my hypothesis about those cufftitles.
I’m not trying here to “expose” believers, I’m mainly trying to test my hypothesis and the logic I proposed on the WAF.
Suspicious items have sometimes a similar pattern in the way they are marketed/sold.
And “unbelievable” stories are most of the time… unbelievable.
I’m fully aware of hoards that are surfacing from time to time, but I think we need to stay skeptical, even if it is an error. The best example is the opinion I had on the “Charlemagne” Delich cufftitle, as all the other infos I had were hard to understand as a whole.
And finally, with more infos surfacing, I had to admit that the Delich cufftitle fully legit.

Now the problem is that we can’t use argument of authority like “X, Y and Z, famous collectors believe in them” (nor I can say that the same for unbelievers).
We have to trust history and facts, not opinions.
Anyone can do a mistake, or have personal interest into promoting something.
I fully understand that those collectors should remain unidentified, but I would love to be able to change my mind with additional infos that they may have…

2)
About the fact that the “Hitlerjugend” 6-strand cufftitles were not said to be part of the Groch hoard : this is correct, but again they have similar construction to the Groch cufftitles.
The small document showing the three known cufftitles shows that they are very similar.
Where they made by the same people that did Groch hoard ? Where they made before ?
Or maybe after (to try to make easy money on a “desirable” cufftitle) ?
Did other crooks had the same idea and used similar blank cufftitles (maybe from the same lot) ?

3)
The notion of “rare” and “desirable” is perfectly understandable, but in the case of those “Hitlerjugend” 6-strand cufftitles, they are indeed rare… and desirable (at least anything related to the “Hitlerjugend” SS division is desirable).
The fact that we are lacking info about this cufftitle, and the fact that BeVo-like 2 model is the one and only original said to exist may reduce the “desire” for it you are right.

4)
The problem is that if we are lacking proof to link those 6-strand cufftitles with the SS division, this is exactly the same for the “Hitlerjugend” organization.
I don’t think that cufftitles similar to the Waffen-SS may have been permitted at all (the “Marine Hitlerjugend” cufftitle is nothing like an SS cufftitle, please check this ultra rare beauty here : http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=969082&page=2 ), and HJ-SS flak helpers already have their own patches/armbands.

5)
Now about the Luc 6-strand cufftitle, it is the last one at the bottom in the picture showing 11 models (I found a 12th model since this post). So yes, to me it is (unfortunately) a Groch model, like the 11 others.
Actually I have to thank Luc because he was the first to point out that it could be interesting to work on the subject of the 6/7-strand “Langemarck” cufftitles.
It was great to identify the two original RZM 7-strand “Langemarck” cufftitle variations (B+K91/B+H427, and B+K440/B+N149 – the more common one).

See You

Vince

[Brandon93]

HJ RZM cuff Weitze Sold

Hello,

The HJ RZM cuff on Weitze has been sold.
I wonder if Weitze on this one , also life- time guarantee gives ?

Brandon

[Christian J]

[sutka]

guys
its just my personal opinion but i dont like look of H on this cuffs

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

many thanks Christian for another picture of the lot !

I was unable to find another (famous) period picture with an unofficial homemade "H-J" cufftitle, but it was because i was not searching in the right place in my archives.

Below the original N&B picture, and the colorized version.
I don't know when it was taken, but the young Sturmmann was awarded a black wound badge if i'm right ?
Therefore it could be a picture taken after the first blood of the division in Normandy, but before the official BeVo like 2 cufftitle at least started to be awarded in September 19, 1944.

See You

Vince