Rare Hitlerjugend Cufftitle

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

and here is a third - different - homemade and unofficial "Hitlerjugend" cufftitle !
This one is a bit similar to the previous model i posted.

This Hauptscharführer was also awarded the Germanische Leistungsrune !

You can notice that this cufftitle and the first i posted are in gothic font, nothing like what will be made with the official BeVo like 2 model.
And i'm not talking of the "HJ Div." model.

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

and to conclude on the existence of the period homemade and unofficial "Hitlerjugend" cufftitles, here is an interesting topic and testimony provided by Hunderstaffel :

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=407437

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...8&postcount=31

See You

Vince

[Martin Stiles]

Hj

I have relisted my HJ cuff title but I have had to raise the price.

http://www.hannahsreich.co.uk/viewphoto.php?x=1

Best , Martin

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

I have relisted my HJ cuff title but I have had to raise the price.

... because if someone is ready to pay 2500 euros on Weitze, someone else should be ready to pay that price elsewhere isn't it ?
The original price asked to Scott was a "bargain price" indeed.

Is it possible to know who decided to raise the price ?
I have my own idea (which explain a lot of the current discussion and operation to "authenticate" those dubious 6-strand cufftitles imo) but i may be wrong afterall...

I would love to have a link from this topic added in the end of the "description" of this 6-strand cufftitle on Martin's website... The info provided to the collectors is imo biased and based only on an unconfirmed info (Delich gospel). But i'm sure this discussion will not help the sale of the cufftitle...

This is funny, the more you raise doubts, the more believers (or should i say collectors with less historical background, skepticism and logic) "believe" in their fantasy...

Afterall, all is a question of money isn't it ?
Facts and history are not taken in account at all, this topic will stay written in stone on the WAF as a testimony of pure greed on dubious items, just in case some collectors were doubting of that.

Now only a poor picture taken from an advanced collector (argument on authority) claiming some "facts" ("rare original RZM prototype") without providing any proof is enough...

It proves that what is printed in books is taken as gospel by too many collectors.
This is why so many fakes are included in books, to have them "legitimized" in the eyes of the public.

This prototype is so "rare" than now we have at least three similar cufftitles...
No matter the odds right ?

I'm still waiting to get from the believer side any kind of hypothesis that could explain us why those 6-strand cufftitles may be real...

See You

Vince

[sutka]

i like that letter also

[Ludwig vK]

The link does not work. In the Hannahs Reich shop there is a HJ cufftitle, Price: 'Reserved'.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

Martin is not the consignator/owner, so i undertand that he just said that he was asked to raise the price.

Below are screenshots of the three collectors that were interested by the cufftitle, with the final buyer (for now).

I think that we can move on... The case is closed.
...Until the next Groch/"Hitlerjugend" 6-strand cufftitle appear on the market.

See You

Vince

[Max Wünsche]

Interesting that the price is raised and someone jumps on it within hours....

Especially when so many doubts have been raised....

[Martin Stiles]

Hi,

Martin is not the consignator/owner, so i undertand that he just said that he was asked to raise the price.

Below are screenshots of the three collectors that were interested by the cufftitle, with the final buyer (for now).

I think that we can move on... The case is closed.
...Until the next Groch/"Hitlerjugend" 6-strand cufftitle appear on the market.

See You

Vince

Point of order.


I am the owner and have been since the complete set came from the family.

[TomH]

Hi,

Martin is not the consignator/owner, so i undertand that he just said that he was asked to raise the price.

Below are screenshots of the three collectors that were interested by the cufftitle, with the final buyer (for now).

I think that we can move on... The case is closed.
...Until the next Groch/"Hitlerjugend" 6-strand cufftitle appear on the market.

See You

Vince

Vince,

once again you have made an assumption and presented an inaccuracy as fact. This damages your credibility as a knowledgeable and influential member of the forum and for your own sake you should stop this.

In post 49 you said:

"Is it possible to know who decided to raise the price ?
I have my own idea (which explain a lot of the current discussion and operation to "authenticate" those dubious 6-strand cufftitles imo) but i may be wrong afterall..."

Please do share your thoughts on this - ideas and theories are fine when not presented as facts.

The real loser in this of course is Scot who was persuaded by a vocal campaign on a forum that represents maybe 10% of collectors in this field that the cuffband he wanted to buy at a reasonable price was bad. I assume he lost some form of deposit as well.

I will reiterate, for the avoidance of any doubt, I am neutral on these bands.

In England the judicial system is based on guilty or not guilty but in Scotland there is a third category of "not proven" and that is where these bands sit. I will continue to resist efforts to categorise them as fake until incontrovertible evidence to the contrary appears. That, mon ami, is logic.

Tom

[wolfslair44]

I would like to thank Martin for being completely reasonable during the transaction. Notwithstanding the discussion on this one, I did offer to work with him on it but he was a complete gentleman. This experience does not sour my experience and I would buy from him again in a second.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

@ Martin : thanks for confirming that you were the sole owner of the “Hitlerjugend” cufftitle.

@ TomH : you are correct, I thought that the cufftitle was on consignment at Martin’s website, which was not the case.

The problem is that to the contrary of many people that believe and promote fake and dubious items, I tend to admit my errors… Mainly because I’m trying to prove my point in the best skeptical way, and that yes, when the opposite side only use the mightly argument of authority, well it is easy to seat down and wait for an error to come.

My thoughts on post 49 :
- for you, the Groch/”Hitlerjugend” cufftitles may be legit.
- you checked the “Hitlerjugend” that Weitze bought, and you said that “the consensus amongst the substantial number of established and experienced collectors that saw this band at the show is that it is original and pre-1945 issue”.
It will be hard for me to prove who is vocally promoting the Groch/”Hitlerjugend” cufftitles, as “there is a consensus amongst established collectors”…

If those collectors have the right to stay anonymous, i would love to hear their theories on those cufftitles.

To me the "Hitlerjugend" cufftitles are very similar to the Groch models, and may have been done by the same people.

I would be happy to get your opinion on the points I presented on why those cufftitles may not be original.
And I would happily discuss with you your theories about why, afterall, those cufftitles could be legit.

We need more than the “many collectors think they are legit” sentence you are telling again and again…

About your final sentence on the judicial system, collectors should better you use the skeptic way : the Occam’s razor.
On the Groch/"Hitlerjugend" case, to me it is promoting the argument from ignorance.
As per Wikipedia : it asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true.

Like Carl Sagan said : “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.
The claims around the Groch hoard/”Hitlerjugend” 6-strand cufftitles are extraordinary.
And we are still waiting for those extraordinary evidences.

About Scott, this topic and discussion saved him a lot of money, he is not a loser at all… Many collectors think that those cufftitles are legit ?
Well, i can also say that many collectors do not like those.

See You

Vince

[Lloyd I.]

Not to defray the topic on 6 strand HJ cufftitles or non-regulation types but I wonder if this variety has ever been discussed and it appears a similar example was worn by KM. He is definitely not wearing an AH cuff.

[Ian Hulley]

Not to defray the topic on 6 strand HJ cufftitles or non-regulation types but I wonder if this variety has ever been discussed and it appears a similar example was worn by KM. He is definitely not wearing an AH cuff.

There looks to be a break in the text ... as you would have on an 'Adolf Hitler' band. The photos I've seen of 'LAH' veterans who made up the cadre of the 'HJ' Division retained their 'LAH' insignia.

Frankly if you can read anything else from that photo you have miraculously good eyes.


There's little point continuing the discussion ... the great and good (whoever they are) have gathered and declared the 6 strand 'HJ' to be good so that's that. You just have to hope that one of them is in the market for one when you want to sell it.

Ian.

[sutka]

+1