Research Soviet Film Studio Markings with regards to Pink Smocks

[phild]

Photo of a KL shop-where do you see any heavy duty 2 needle chainstitch machinery to make the double stitch jeans type seams?? Nowhere.
Only simple lockstitch single needle..and thats how smocks were made.

I intended to add to my response in my post 835 that the photo you posted is I believe taken at a shop in Dachau KZ circa 1939. They are making inmate clothing in this photo. The double needle machines were installed in Ravensbruck circa 1942 I think.

I know how much collectors weigh period photos, but relaying on period photos as a primary means of proof of something that was used or made pre May 45 is a very weak and foolhardy metric.

I as stated many pages back, there has never been a systematic study posted or published that addressed of all of the variations of the Second Type smock. I'm not talking about camo patterns, but rather the sewing and construction details.

[brooksbz]

Most KZ garments were made with single lockstitch machines.

Is there a reference for this comment?

"The double needle machines were installed in Ravensbruck circa 1942 I think. "

I study the period photos as well, and can find no photgraphic evidence or references on the type of machines used in the camps. Usually the pictures of the sewing floors with banks of machines sewing in an assembly line are only single needles machines. The heavy duty specialized machines are usually in separate stations in a factory layout.

I have seen only empirical evidence of double needle machines used on helmet covers.

Usually the sophisticated machines (non-single needle lockstitch) were found only in the heavy garment industry. "Uniformen und Soldaten" book by Dr. Ehrlich best illustrates my point.

It would be nice if someone would post a picture of a non-single needle machine in a KZ setting.

[Thorsten B.]

I should add that the volume of work in KL Ravensbrück started with the demand of 120 smocks each working shift (12 hours) in 1940/41 and ended up with the demand of 200 produced smocks - even to the skilled female seamstress very high demand of output!

So the demand of production numbers of smocks clearly increased with the development of the war.

You can be sure that this mentioned demanded output could only be realized via the use of highest possible machinery.

Let´s translate the start of the plant of the SS-Bekleidungswerk Dachau in KL Ravensbrück - "Kleidung zieht jeden an", page 158:

"In July 1940 the Texled took control over the facilities of the tailoring, knitting mill and the braiding in Ravensbrück with 141 inmates working there.
This process was the result of carrying out a personal order of Himmler which he issued after visiting the camp before.

Until the beginning of 1941 three new barracks had been erected for the new tailoring and new braiding in which now there was working place for 700 inmates.

The barracks were equipped with the newest sewing machines made by Pfaff and Dürkopp and other modern special-purpose machines perfectioning the manufacturing process.

This whole investment was possible for the SS via the Reich defraying the costs."

[Thorsten B.]

And finally the highest point of evolution was reached at KL Ravensbrück in 1943:

"At first the inmates worked in barracks made of wood (the three mentioned ones being erected in 1941).

From 1943 on the demanded number of pieces of clothes manufactured solely for the use of the SS vastly increased - therefore the Texled gave orders for new massive modern manufacturing buildings made of stone being erected on the isolated industrial area of the camp.

The new buildings were the tailoring I, weaving mill, furrier´s workshop and a storage depot.

Within the tailoring I there were 15 modern production lines being situated and equipped with 26 electric sewing machines each."

[brooksbz]

Thank you for the informative post.

For reference purposes it would be nice to see a list of the different types of machines procured by the SS. No one can argue that the SS had the capacity to produce many uniforms after 1942. I am curious about the exact type of machines used to produce them.

Based on my personal and direct observations, most standard uniforms could be produced with two different types of machines. Some dress and wraps could be produced with a minimum of three. SS cammo could be produced with 2-4 different types of machines.

[Thorsten B.]

Thank you for the informative post.

For reference purposes it would be nice to see a list of the different types of machines procured by the SS. No one can argue that the SS had the capacity to produce many uniforms after 1942. I am curious about the exact type of machines used to produce them.

Based on my personal and direct observations, most standard uniforms could be produced with two different types of machines. Some dress and wraps could be produced with a minimum of three. SS cammo could be produced with 2-4 different types of machines.

Therefore you will have to check file BA NS 3/134 of the Bundesarchiv.

As mentioned Himmler himself pushed this development so I have no doubt that the latest and most effective machines were bought and introduced - it was all about winning the war.

Original Ravensbrück made SS camo pieces will certainly reveal that in any case.

[mo-do]

Re

Yes it was, you are correct. My point that I did not state is that although I doubted the double needle on pink smock over 35 years ago, I have long since learned better and the one posted by Owen that you mention here is an example of that.

To be even more clear, if one was to look at the reverse side of the seam shown in that photo of the pink smock they would also see the chain lock as shown on the black thread German made smock. So this is a poor comparison photo in that sense as we don’t see see the bobin side of the pink smock.

As for the needle spacing, I will have to measure mine again, but if mo-do is suggesting that just 4mm machine existed before 1945 I want to see the evidence or reference.
As to what the Germans used, I don’t really care as I don’t believe these were made in Germany

Here you are- a worn hbt work tunic, seam made with 2 needle lockstitch sewing flatbed/ double bobbin/machine with 4mm spacing. Front and reverse.

Now they didnt have these type of machines in the KL's all prisoners used foot powered adler, pfaff and singer household machines.

I bet the more heavy duty clothing factories in Germany had them . Even though still this in lockstitching it was a more expensive machine
requiring some skills -and only probably used strictly by clothing factories withi germany. The chainstitch jeans Juki Brother machines are more complicated and require special threading tools to put the bottom thread through the machine since there are no bobbins in them. They simply are more consuming in thread usage, and require skilled workers to operate. I doubt that they would have inmates in KL's operate 2 needle chainstitch machinery that evolved after ww2.

[Thorsten B.]

And finally the highest point of evolution was reached at KL Ravensbrück in 1943:

"...Within the tailoring I there were 15 modern production lines being situated and equipped with 26 electric sewing machines each."

You should carefully read what I wrote.

[phild]

Thank you for the informative post.
Based on my personal and direct observations, most standard uniforms could be produced with two different types of machines. Some dress and wraps could be produced with a minimum of three. SS cammo could be produced with 2-4 different types of machines.

There are a couple of conversations going on here in this last page of posts, but all related. I will try to respond. I found a reference to the upgrading of Ravensbruck in 1942 and in that reference it did not specify double stitch machines. It did state modern machines and that some had a capability to sew button holes (implied that their earlier set up did not) and this reference was basically a continuation of the reference cited by ThorstenB in this thread.

To mo-do, Thanks for your photo of the front and back. I am not sure if the chain stitch you show is the same as found on the so-called pinks or the "German" made standard in black thread posted by Owen (both of of which seem to be same to each other in terms of the chain stitch.

You seem to know your subject and I can respect that. I can agree that the double needle machines were expensive and required higher skills. I do not know for a fact one way or the other if they were used in any KZ shops, but that question, or rather its answer, is not that important to the subject at hand IMO.

We seem to know now that a large amount of SS uniform production was not executed within the KZ system, but with other private companies as well. We also now know that the wartime smocks and other SS camo items came from a number of manufacturers as born out by the production details and some of the code markings found on dot 44 pattern items for instance.

As for the pink smock the question still stands that if it was made post war (or wartime) it was made in a well equipped factory. While this would have been possible in pre-1980 Eastern Europe or the USSR, I find it unlikely. No doubt others will chime in say how easy it would have been and then explain why it took the "expert" fakers in the West another 25 years to figure out the double needle arm and side seams.

[ACD]

The problem with the stamps is that our russian friends have shown they are not real russian stamps. To believe in these stamps you have to convince yourself that they are from some interim period at a film studio that no one can confirm even existed and they were stamped with stamps that have not been seen before or since in any other film costume.

A similar situation is for example with 100% true belt buckles (also SS) marked GZM instead of RZM etc etc...
GZM = ?? - and there is still no evidence of who is the manufacturer..

[ACD]

If Mr Floch really does not lie, and these jackets really come from Czechoslovakia, so in my opinion are the jackets that were half-privately in the last months of the war produced (from money of Emanuel Moravec and his Kuratorium) for St. Wenceslas Company..

https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svatováclavská_rota

[Jeff V]

Floch has pumped more fakes of all types in this hobby for years than almost anyone. His name is synonymous with fake. This is the man that the believer puts his faith in.

[jimt]

Floch

Floch has pumped more fakes of all types in this hobby for years than almost anyone. His name is synonymous with fake. This is the man that the believer puts his faith in.

I also find it a bit odd that after all these years no one seems to be able to reach out to Floch to get the true answers ? or perhaps they did get the answers ? twilight zone ? You can argue about the construction all day long but the real answers are where they came from and by who ? single thread , double thread Really ?

[phild]

I also find it a bit odd that after all these years no one seems to be able to reach out to Floch to get the true answers ? or perhaps they did get the answers ? twilight zone ? You can argue about the construction all day long but the real answers are where they came from and by who ? single thread , double thread Really ?

I can not help you with your first question, but it is ridiculous to base the originality of an item (or lack of it) on who previously sold it.

I see where you are coming from about the endless back and forth on double needle machines......unless it can be shown that those making this pattern stitch did not exist during the war.

The detail construction discussions on these stems from them not looking exactly right but in fact being exactly right.

I compare it to writing your signature with an injured hand. A novice would notice that the signature is different from earlier ones and say "fake", but an expert would recognize that it shows none of the tell tale signs of a fake (start and stopping for instance) and it was too off in look to be a good fake, but that it is in fact a true signature written badly for some reason.

[90th Light]

I also find it a bit odd that after all these years no one seems to be able to reach out to Floch to get the true answers ? or perhaps they did get the answers ? twilight zone ? You can argue about the construction all day long but the real answers are where they came from and by who ? single thread , double thread Really ?

Bob Hritz has spoken to Floch about these and if I understood what Bob stated several threads ago, also any paper work in connection with them. Again as I understood what Bob said, Floch was still dealing with some of those connected with this find but when he was ready, would let us know.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hritz on earlier thread
"I bought mine from Johannes Floch. Johannes found these in Czechoslovakia in bales. This was from such a bale. There were somcks that were greatly damaged from rodent chewing and I recall one missing one sleeve and shoulder to such damage. All had been washed to obtain export papers to get them to Austria.

Whatever anyone wants to comment about my friend, Johannes Floch, I will state that I have never seen him sell anything described as anything but what it is. I asked Johannes about the smocks and he told me they were found in Czechoslovakia and I believe him. He has never lied to me since we met in 1971.

If you have a mint tropical overseas cap, a mint boxed bronze or silver Herman Aurich tank badge, a mint packeted JFS Infantry assault badge. one of the hundreds of mint Allgemeine-SS numbered cuff titles (to include all the Sanitats-Abteilung XXXIII titles), mint Theodor Eicke white bevo cuff titles, and thousands of other original pieces of insignia, they may well have come from Johannes Floch. Johannes was the most successful Third Reich relic hunter and spent decades searching for material from original sources. At any MAX Show or Show of Shows, introduce yourself to Johannes and ask him."

Bob Hritz



Sums it up nicely,

Chris