Camo coming from Lorenzo - Helmet cover

[RobertE]

For the same reason that high-value medals, very expensive visors, SS insignia, daggers, rare tunics, and other expensive items are discussed by knowledgeable collectors interested in determining originality. No one collector holds the rosetta stone of wisdom on these items, ESPECIALLY machine sewn garments that were not pounded out by a die or left a pre-set weaving machine such as bevo insignia.

Saying the stitching is incorrect is like saying the etching is wrong on a dagger, the metal is wrong, or the tunic just looks "funny" - it helps no one.

Did you see how the discussion evolved on identifying original M40 SS tunics, with a reproduction company member leading many of our reluctant "experts" through the discussion? Side by side, step by step - that's how we discovered the difference in markings, sizes, and interior liner cuts on SS tunics. Sharing.

In this case, I think the real reason is that many of the replicas dismissed as such have traits found in many originals, and posting these jewels of knowledge would subject them to broader scrutiny by collectors that have these "bad" signs on good items - and would debunk the "experts".

In other words, egos and reputations. Both are dangerous to objective discussion.

s/f Robert

[jacquesf]

Owen has already went into detail explaining the problem with these, including detailed explanations about the sewing/stitching issues.

This is again the typical misdirection that occurs anytime a fake or some kind of scull duggery gets exposed. if you people feel so comfortable with these covers and where they originate, you have nothing to be concerned about. Other appreciate and take note of this warning. J

[jacquesf]

.......

In other words, egos and reputations. Both are dangerous to objective discussion.

s/f Robert

This is not about egos and reputations. Where this hobby gets dangerous is when the discussion becomes more about discussions, supposition, speculation, opinions than facts. Especially by people that has not put in the detail analysis and assesment on the relevant topic/item.

Give me a single "I can entertain a doubt" by a knowledgeable and experienced collector on a topic rather than pages of discussions and opinions. J

[Massimo F.]

Why would Owen put a fake on here going through point by point to show you why it's a fake ?
It will only help the fakers to improve there product.I think there is enough info for you to know what to look for to help spot the fake,or just don't swap anything from Lorenzo

This "helping the Fakers" song is kinda of played out. Fakers can buy a good one, take it apart and copy it stitch by stitch, if they want to, they don't need to "spy" for hidden knowledge on militaria forums... There's tons of genuine rocker clips dug out of Russia available for sale, original cloth, doesn't seem to be a shortage of, and the same goes for original thread.
These are not Faberge eggs ok? we're talking about a bunch of rags basically.

The pitfalls in this hobby far outweigh the fun, enjoyable side of it, too much greed, jealousy, negativity....and people blinded by making a profit. The prices that all this stuff sells for are just ridiculous, the intrinsic value of these items is next to nothing and yet look at what people are willing to do.

These last few weeks made me think a lot about this hobby and I came to the conclusion that it's time for me to consider getting out of it for good. I only miss a couple of pieces of SS cloth to have all I really want and will enjoy.
Once the pursue is over so will be my participation.

Good luck to you all.
Massimo

[ironcross13]

Why would Owen put a fake on here going through point by point to show you why it's a fake ?
It will only help the fakers to improve there product.I think there is enough info for you to know what to look for to help spot the fake,or just don't swap anything from Lorenzo

Just a thought to make it easy for people to spot.. I have heard of the italian fakes in the past and i would not buy one myself. If i was to buy a cover i would post it on here first.

[kammo man]

Thanks for the amplification, Owen. From the photos, I'd say it's impossible to determine if the thread wartime or not. Clips, maybe.



The victims should post their covers for review - these aren't murder cases and there is no mafia coming after them if they post their own details, with photos. Unless they intend to try to resell them as real (or really still believe they are real), what is the harm in posting them?



Having actual items to discuss and the actual people who had the dealings would at least establish that fake items were sold.



It would not prove that Lorenzo made them, or that he sold them knowing they were fake.



For the record, I don't know Lorenzo and he may be guilty of all the things he is being accused of. This thread, however, does not present anything but opinion against him, or the items purported to be fake and made by him.



s/f Robert

Robert

It's fact based on research of the covers and who originally sold them.
Many were tracked down to him being POS.
When I met with Lorenzo at the SOS and he tried to sell me his fake covers offering me my buyers choice of his offerings I seen for myself his game.

This is FACT

There was a WAF moderator within 15 feet of me when this happened.

fACT

Owen

[RobertE]

This is not about egos and reputations. Where this hobby gets dangerous is when the discussion becomes more about discussions, supposition, speculation, opinions than facts. Especially by people that has not put in the detail analysis and assesment on the relevant topic/item.

Give me a single "I can entertain a doubt" by a knowledgeable and experienced collector on a topic rather than pages of discussions and opinions. J

That is all that's been posted so far from either side - opinions. Re-reading opinions gives them no more substance.

I've no doubt if Owen says he met Lorenzo at a show and items were offered or discussed then it happened. That the items turned out to be fake - maybe. But did Lorenzo make them - as charged - or knowing sell items HE KNEW TO BE FAKE ON A MASS SCALE?

s/f Robert

[Palmenmuster]

That is all that's been posted so far from either side - opinions. Re-reading opinions gives them no more substance.

I've no doubt if Owen says he met Lorenzo at a show and items were offered or discussed then it happened. That the items turned out to be fake - maybe. But did Lorenzo make them - as charged - or knowing sell items HE KNEW TO BE FAKE ON A MASS SCALE?

s/f Robert

+ 1
Tom

[kammo man]

Robert,
Lorenzo is not stupid.
He knows whats real.
He knows whats NOT real.
Thats why he swopped his fake covers for REAL items time and time again.
He also sold his fake covers for REAL cash.
He also sucked in REAL collectors into his spider web for his FAKE items.
His fake has been exposed.
If you care not to believe the facts then its up to you to decide.
owen

[jacquesf]

The problem in this hobby is that the moment fakery or scullduggery gets exposed it becomes the responsibility of the whistleblower to proof everything. It should be the allegged faker or wrongdoer that has the burden of proof to clear him or his item. But that never happens. His supporters just throw up a smokescreen fir the villian to dissappear into. It happens every time without fail. J

[Disco Partisan]

Robert,
Lorenzo is not stupid.
He knows whats real.
He knows whats NOT real.
Thats why he swopped his fake covers for REAL items time and time again.
He also sold his fake covers for REAL cash.
He also sucked in REAL collectors into his spider web for his FAKE items.
His fake has been exposed.
If you care not to believe the facts then its up to you to decide.
owen

Nothing has been proved by you. You provided No single evidence, and no single fact has been presented. All we had from you is only words so far. You also never demonstrated us how discussed covers differ from original for example in side-by-side comparison or just verbally. BTW who is the moderator that saw you speaking with Lorenzo at the SOS-2009 and can he confirm that Lorenzo offered you helmet covers?

Honestly such discussions especially on this matter is always like when you have bad fever and experiencing some sort of insane nightmare you know that one with no logic and no sense in it at all, when you are falling somewhere in all directions with complete lack of orientation and navigation, horrified of unexplained something and just can't help yourself as everything is out of reality and control
Same here on thread with kammo man.. You talk to him and he is like from the unreal world in that nightmare

[RobertE]

The problem in this hobby is that the moment fakery or scullduggery gets exposed it becomes the responsibility of the whistleblower to proof everything. It should be the allegged faker or wrongdoer that has the burden of proof to clear him or his item. But that never happens. His supporters just throw up a smokescreen fir the villian to dissappear into. It happens every time without fail. J

I'm not a supporter. I don't know Lorenzo. We are all tired of the fakery; it's driven many good collectors from the hobby in my 40 years of collecting, more so in recent times.

We all pick who are collecting mentors are, you have yours and I have mine. And I don't care who you hang our with, or how many times you have a beer together at the SOS, or how many back-channel PMs you exchange - I don't come here to make friends. Or create a group of followers. I come here to learn, and in most areas of the WAF have learned a tremendous amount.

s/f Robert

[Scott A. Hess]

If one looks at many other accepted SS items, Zelts, smocks,.tunics etc., one will see the same and what I consider typical Stitching methods, and especially on Zelts and smocks, a sloppyness which is fairly easy to the discern on many pieces. For this reason, I do accept Owens and others opinion regarding why these covers with regards to stitching are not correct. They have proven to be correct on areas of these covers I had not considered before, and therefore I do accept their opinions as accurate. Take a look at at the fronts texled reproduction covers. I will check again, but I believe it is this very same stitch length, and sloppiness which he replicates. Just my opinion. I purchased no covers from Lorenzo, but did purchase 10+ a very original SS winter panzer kombi and SS Saharina tunic, both very right, textbook and beyond reproach. Our dealings went fine, however, I imagine I would be quite upset and beside myself if I had bought a cover from him. Back then I knew very little about SS covers, but have slowly been studying and learning.

Covers are scary, but not magical. There is no reason wartime pieces should not follow other sewing seen on other pieces, it was just a cheap, quickly produced item..much like other items. They should IMO mirror how other items were made with respect to assembly and stitching methods, the same as stitching and sewing is replicated on army, Luftwaffe or any othe branch garments. There were standards.

[RobertE]

Covers are scary, but not magical. There is no reason wartime pieces should not follow other sewing seen on other pieces, it was just a cheap, quickly produced item..much like other items. They should IMO mirror how other items were made with respect to assembly and stitching methods, the same as stitching and sewing is replicated on army, Luftwaffe or any othe branch garments. There were standards.

Absolutely correct.

[Palmenmuster]

This is not about egos and reputations. Where this hobby gets dangerous is when the discussion becomes more about discussions, supposition, speculation, opinions than facts. Especially by people that has not put in the detail analysis and assesment on the relevant topic/item.

Give me a single "I can entertain a doubt" by a knowledgeable and experienced collector on a topic rather than pages of discussions and opinions. J

As I see it, its all about egos.
Tom