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**Fritz** · 04-13-2016, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by Disco Partisan View Post

"knowledge"?you are kidding

forget about it.. i trust that person for years, had many hight-amount$$$$$ transactions with him with no single problem, he is also a cap, and now one of the sudden, you tell me to believe you that he is a crook without any evidence shown, no facts, etc just bare words and gossips excuse me here how in the world would I believe any one then including you after that?

Words of comfort....to yourself.

**Fritz** · 04-13-2016, 01:18 AM

I would like to add to the discussion that IMO it was always the same fabric used for different items. I.e. no special fabric for covers. The weight of the material varied, also for zelts.

Also, IMO, the reinforcement of the front is usually a factory applied feature and not a repair.

I just wanted to bring in my point of view regarding these questions.

**Daniel.S** · 04-13-2016, 02:57 AM

Originally posted by Disco Partisan View Post

you can see all his covers in his new books

they are now available and two are on the way to me already by the way

Its like Buying Carsten Staegmeiers book about awards (if he would write one).

Disco..

Its been know for years about these covers, everyone who had interest in Covers knew about these fakes.

It is nothing that is new to the collecting community.....

I still see dealers lurking this thread who sold these...still afraid to post?

**pete** · 04-13-2016, 05:30 AM

.

Ok I would like this with absolute certainty, Peter please come on here and say did Lorenzo sell direct to you "cap 2" as in the posted photos.

Best Regards,

Pete

**Palmenmuster** · 04-13-2016, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Fritz View Post

I would like to add to the discussion that IMO it was always the same fabric used for different items. I.e. no special fabric for covers. The weight of the material varied, also for zelts.

Also, IMO, the reinforcement of the front is usually a factory applied feature and not a repair.

I just wanted to bring in my point of view regarding these questions.

I agree with Fritz on the fabric, this is documented as early as june 1945 by Americans inspecting factories in Germany and interrogating the staff and workers.
Tom

**FrenchVolunteer** · 04-13-2016, 03:49 PM

Hi,

the famous July 20, 1945 Richardson report reprinted in 1986 :

Some parts are also available on the camo book made by the late Mr. Beaver (i think we all have the tetralogy he published ^_^).

See You

Vince

**Palmenmuster** · 04-13-2016, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by FrenchVolunteer View Post

Hi,

the famous July 20, 1945 Richardson report reprinted in 1986 :

Some parts are also available on the camo book made by the late Mr. Beaver (i think we all have the tetralogy he published ^_^).

See You

Vince

I can strongly recommend reading the US Richardson report. You will get facts about German production of camo cloth, production etc. not hearsay.
Tom

**pete** · 04-14-2016, 12:25 PM

Alright, i am STILL giving the chance to respond and clarify however i see no response at present!

-Cap Number 2, I bought from Peter.

-After I got the cap, Lorenzo was at my house one day and said he did not think this cap was original, original material but not WW2 made. Thus I promptly sent it back to Peter and explained my personal concerns (agreed or not- these were my personal concerns- and we are entitled to that) and he was still good enough to take it back- with some administration.

-Peter then listed it on his site, as i watched it sell on the internet. It sold and in the end I had lost 20% (about 400-600 euros if i recall) in the process of getting my original money back. This is not small money for anyone, this kind of cash is some peoples monthly salary and we trust when we buy and expect to be taken care of 100% refunded if there is an error!

-At the time Lorenzo also told me he had sent number 1 to Peter as i had asked him did he see the other cap for sale- now... question: why would Lorenzo tell me cap number 2 was in his opinion not original but yet still sell it to Peter in the first place? I don't get it......It seems nobody can come on here and say did Lorenzo sell two caps or one!

NOTE: I have bought for the record lots of nice things from peter, whenever there was a concern he changed or refunded as well, and from Lorenzo the same plane tree cap from Lorenzo back then (vetted 100% good factory cap) and had to sell it on the way, he never ever offered me a helmet cover or anything else as well even privately! I have visited Lorenzo before and he showed me items he was restoring and always mentioned they were restored, at least one of which ended up on a dealer site and "untouched", so i have no idea about these helmet covers, however These are the facts i can tell from my side. Its a pity we have expelled people and not allowed them to defend themselves on here, guilty or not.

Again i am giving the chance for a response here and it would be nice as well if Lorenzo was allowed on here to defend himself.

Now.....if this cap was questionable even back then at any time or perhaps it really was thought this cap was real back then---- I do STILL believe i am now owed cash back either way-admin fees or not. When you buy something, and then you sell it back that's OK to take a fee, however, if this item was known at the time to be or considered to be questionable in any way and that was not disclosed or it was an error not on my part, then the previous does not count and that would be fair!

MODS delete this post if you have to, if its asked or if it offends either one, i'm just trying to get to the bottom of it as I seem to have lost out here!

Best REgards,

Pete

**leib1** · 04-14-2016, 12:43 PM

Pete,
Are you saying you sent this cap back believing it to be post war made to Peter who then gave you a refund ? Who then went onto sell it as a genuine cap again ? You having been told by Lorenzo it wasn't ?
Very confusing

**pete** · 04-14-2016, 12:50 PM

.

Lorenzo told me in my own house, this cap he believed was not original.... That it was WW2 material but not WW2 made. I then promptly sent it back to Peter (with my concerns- which are solely my own trusting Lorenzos knowledge- and which really mean nothing to a dealer actually). Peter gave me back my money, however i lost about 20% in that money coming back. Peter then sold it again because i watched it sell online and im sure others did too! Whether he thought it was good at that time or not i have no clue, however it was resold online.

I lost thats amount of cash in the process. That's it. Again, lets be good people and let Lorenzo back on here, and Peter i am sure will comment, this is nuts.

Pete

**FrenchVolunteer** · 04-14-2016, 01:30 PM

Hi,

pete, on which site did you bought it and it was then sold again ? The Guild ?

See You

Vince

**pete** · 04-14-2016, 01:39 PM

.

Hi Vince, I think its clear that its not Peter Whammond from all previous posts.

That's all i am going to say now, i have said what i thought, its up to the other people now to say what they think. I am hoping Lorenzo will be allowed on here as well.

Best Regards,

Pete

**Fritz** · 04-14-2016, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by pete View Post

-At the time Lorenzo also told me he had sent number 1 to Peter as i had asked him did he see the other cap for sale- now... question: why would Lorenzo tell me cap number 2 was in his opinion not original but yet still sell it to Peter in the first place? I don't get it......It seems nobody can come on here and say did Lorenzo sell two caps or one!

That is a valid question, of course.

The cynic I am I would say he could not "remember" it. I mean that he really lost track. Keep in mind that we are not talking about 4 or 5 items.

The good part is he didn't like it - rightly so!

But to be fair: These items were quite common among italian collectors, however, as far as my observation goes nobody had offered as many of these on a global scale as Lorenzo. Not even near as many. And I was in most cases told these items were found at Prato - Right out of the recycling facility. Bosh!

By the time Lorenzo showed up on the forum sales of such items boosted and that was the time when it was taken to a global scale. Ad hoc I would guess I could name 12 collectors that took at least one of his items, some even more. Plus others that I do not know but have contacted me over the years.

I can tell you that Lorenzo has sold and offered numerous caps of this type (same grommets, same other mistakes). Also plenty of covers. That is what I can tell you. Among the plentiful "questionable" material were other gems such as kombis.

I can understand that you are focusing on this particular cap and my advice would be to contact Peter about it in order to maybe learn more and have this sorted out.

We should not forget though that the two other items did in fact come from Lorenzo directly. So did other items shown in this thread, as well as those that came inderectly from him but still can be traced back to him as well.

Cheers

**pete** · 04-14-2016, 02:29 PM

.

There's only one issue there with that though Fritz...i actually saw with my own eyes the pictures on his laptop that his picker(s) was sending him daily of these items from whatever recycling facilities they were coming from, and there were lots of various amateur photos. I can recall all different kinds of material and uniforms in various states as well, clearly in a recycling plant on top of other piles of various material and civilian clothing. He told me not to say where he was getting any of this stuff and i kept it mum, i had no idea to use people in recycling plants to find items. he only wanted the SS or Para items as well, so thats another thing i recall. No idea to believe he otherwise with these many many pictures of crumpled up uniforms and equipment. I still don't believe Lorenzo is a dishonest person or those were made up photos. I'll give the benefit of the doubt, innocent until proven guilty- that's just me, others can have their own opinion.

Best Regards,

Pete

**Fritz** · 04-14-2016, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by pete View Post

There's only one issue there with that though Fritz...i actually saw with my own eyes the pictures on his laptop that his picker(s) was sending him daily of these items from whatever recycling faculties they were coming from. I can recall all different kinds of material and uniforms in various states as well, clearly in a recycling plant on top of other piles of various material and civilian clothing. he told me not to say where he was getting any of this stuff and i kept it mum, i had no idea to use people in recycling plants to find items.

Best Regards,

Pete

Think twice:

- Did he tell you it came from Prato and showed you pictures which you did see with your own eyes or did you see with your own eyes how items were picked up at Prato?

- Granted, good stuff might have been found there. However. The core of the matter is this is not good stuff. And can we conclude that it is impossible to inflate the number of items "found there" by adding a good deal of fakes? A procedure that lives on to this day whenever authentic groupings are being "spiced up" with either authentic items or fakes.

Cheers

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Camo coming from Lorenzo - Helmet cover

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