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**Scott A. Hess** · 04-09-2016, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Disco Partisan View Post

Nothing has been proved by you. You provided No single evidence, and no single fact has been presented. All we had from you is only words so far. You also never demonstrated us how discussed covers differ from original for example in side-by-side comparison or just verbally. BTW who is the moderator that saw you speaking with Lorenzo at the SOS-2009 and can he confirm that Lorenzo offered you helmet covers?

Honestly such discussions especially on this matter is always like when you have bad fever and experiencing some sort of insane nightmare you know that one with no logic and no sense in it at all, when you are falling somewhere in all directions with complete lack of orientation and navigation, horrified of unexplained something and just can't help yourself as everything is out of reality and control
Same here on thread with kammo man.. You talk to him and he is like from the unreal world in that nightmare

I have met very very few of the people on this fourm. Less than a dozen for sure. Some are very cordial and helpful, some are not. The forums are a microcosm of society in general. This forum has been of great great value to me, I have learned a tremendous amount, and have added dozens upon dozens of items to my collection from forum members, and am thankful to them all. Most people here are very good and decent people, I have no doubt of this, some are quite hostile, to the point of threatening harm in PM's. So its a mixed bad, but generally positive, and I hope I do contribute something positive to the discussion.

I do respect Owens opinions and knowledge. Why? well..he has been quite accurate on many occasions with regard to these covers, and has shared details previously only hidden. He can be brash and blunt, but so can we all. I'm not jumping on any ones bandwagon per se, as I mentioned my previous dealings with Lorenzo were fine. I have no firsthand knowledge of these covers being sold by him, however, I would imagine the number that do is very small. Those that sell such items..fakes..are certainly try to keep the source as unknown as possible. Unless you were part of or someone offered these covers to you directly, you would not know. I also have no reason not to believe what transpired with Owen regarding their being offered for sale to him. I had heard similar rumblings at the SOS several years ago.

**Disco Partisan** · 04-10-2016, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by Scott A. Hess View Post

If one looks at many other accepted SS items, Zelts, smocks,.tunics etc., one will see the same and what I consider typical Stitching methods, and especially on Zelts and smocks, a sloppyness which is fairly easy to the discern on many pieces. For this reason, I do accept Owens and others opinion regarding why these covers with regards to stitching are not correct. They have proven to be correct on areas of these covers I had not considered before, and therefore I do accept their opinions as accurate. Take a look at at the fronts texled reproduction covers. I will check again, but I believe it is this very same stitch length, and sloppiness which he replicates. Just my opinion. I purchased no covers from Lorenzo, but did purchase 10+ a very original SS winter panzer kombi and SS Saharina tunic, both very right, textbook and beyond reproach. Our dealings went fine, however, I imagine I would be quite upset and beside myself if I had bought a cover from him. Back then I knew very little about SS covers, but have slowly been studying and learning.

Covers are scary, but not magical. There is no reason wartime pieces should not follow other sewing seen on other pieces, it was just a cheap, quickly produced item..much like other items. They should IMO mirror how other items were made with respect to assembly and stitching methods, the same as stitching and sewing is replicated on army, Luftwaffe or any othe branch garments. There were standards.

There was no such thing as the "Stitching Standard" in the Third Reich SS uniforms industry (simply never existed) and there is no "typical Stitching methods" that could be observed in original SS items, zelts, smocks, helmet covers, etc. It is a myth created by "kammo man". Stitch style, thread thickness, type of thread, color, stitch length, stitch intense, "sloppiness" or accuracy, sewing methods, etc. - all these details vary enormously in original examples, because all these details in fact depended on their manufacturers individually on such things as equipment used, different settings, supplies, human resources, the time/ phase of the war when it was made, etc. - it was nothing like Coca-Cola company today that produces the very same beverage at any their factory in the world. During the years of the war, many different manufacturers (big and small) made these garments at many different locations all across Europe and they only followed the basic construction outline - that's why we see many variations in their details today, and not just in camouflage or uniforms but everything. I think it is obvious things I am talking about. Don't you see that "kammo man" made these things up? He has never demonstrated "fake differences" in visual comparisons with original examples. He evaded all questions and only repeats the same "it is fake". He has nothing to support his statements because he is bluffing. "Kammo man" knows that collectors here do not have experience and knowledge in original ss helmet covers sufficiently enough to discuss it with him and he uses it to fool and scare you with "superfakes" and make himself to look like a "kammo god" in your eyes. In fact, most of the time (at least in these threads) it looks like he does not really know much about helmet covers himself as all what the said is very basic, subjective, and narrowed. He is not an expert in SS helmet covers at all in my sincere opinion. He cannot distinguish fake from original and original from fake. In fact, all the helmet covers that he claimed to be "Italian fake" are just helmet covers, which he knew once belonged to Lorenzo or have been in Italy at some point in time. That's the only reason in his mind why he thinks that they are fake. Period. He really sees no "red flags" in any of them, just the fact that they "came from Italy" makes him think (intentionally or not) that they are fake. That's why he never provided any valid arguments to support his claims, each and every time just funny things like "modern sewing, new clips, fake stitching" etc. it is sad that his "teaching" became popular here and so well-supported by many..
To illustrate what I said in the following pictures below are shown original (with rock-solid provenance) helmet covers exhibiting various thread and stitching styles

**FrenchVolunteer** · 04-10-2016, 06:45 PM

Hi,

i thought that the metal parts were in aluminium (no rust) ?

Also if i remember somewhere in the WAF, wans't it said that helmet covers were not made of the same material as the Zeltbahn (waterproof) ?

See You

Vince

**leib1** · 04-10-2016, 07:09 PM

Put together
http://www.hannahsreich.co.uk/viewph...ph=3726&phqu=9
Near mint
http://www.hannahsreich.co.uk/viewph...h=3676&phqu=10

**ironcross13** · 04-10-2016, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by leib1 View Post

Put together
http://www.hannahsreich.co.uk/viewph...ph=3726&phqu=9
Near mint
http://www.hannahsreich.co.uk/viewph...h=3676&phqu=10

What's your point of posting these covers?

**NickG** · 04-10-2016, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Disco Partisan View Post

During the years of the war, many different manufacturers (big and small) made these garments at many different locations
all across Europe and they only followed the basic construction outline - that's why we see many variations in their details today

Agreed! Same can be said of smocks, different thread thickness and thread color used...
(field gray and/or black,brown thread etc....even combinations of thread colors, stitchhole/speed/operator skills
can lead to differences... etc) and time period! but I'm not touching the controversial Pink subject! Just in general!
To not accept variations just does not make sense (covers and smocks)...
Case in point:

Attached Files

**Palmenmuster** · 04-10-2016, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by FrenchVolunteer View Post

Hi,

i thought that the metal parts were in aluminium (no rust) ?

Also if i remember somewhere in the WAF, wans't it said that helmet covers were not made of the same material as the Zeltbahn (waterproof) ?

See You

Vince

The clips are both in steel or aluminium. Some expert claims the covers are not made from same material as belts, wrong, usually its the same cloth. If you dont believe I would strongly recommend reading the US Richardson's report from 1945.
Tom

**Fsoq** · 04-11-2016, 02:19 AM

From the beginning, I wonder what does Kammo man mean with WHITE PUFFS around the sewing holes of what is called fake covers.
I spent hours to check pictures of "good covers" and I do not find what is so obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammo man View Post
Sewing is one of the keys to these helmet covers.

Modern thread..........and Vintage thread work completely different.

Like Ying and Yang,.

Please educate yourself and look at the sewing on the HOARD.

Then look at lorenzos fake helmet covers.

Use your eyes and study how vintage cloth and sewing marry together.

Then look at Lorenzos fake covers, what will pop out is the sewing.........you will notice the thickness of the thread, you will notice the micro white puffs around the sewing holes where the modern thread pierces the vintage fabric, you will notice the automatic even spaced sewing holes, you will notice the uniformity in Lorenzos covers.

Lorenzos covers are all similar but slightly different but similar.
The wash is simply put cheesy.
The cloth changes.
The sewing is similar.
The contrived tan thread is consistent with the fake paying NO attention to age.

I am only scratching the surface with the con that numbers over 50 covers.

owen

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=white&page=3
And here is a pic of a cover found by Horsetrainer - same IMO white pluffs.
I do not know who is right in this fight but the difference IMO is not so obvious to tell in my opinion

Attached Files

helmet covers displayed (8).jpg (147.7 KB, 377 views)

**BenVK** · 04-11-2016, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by Disco Partisan View Post

There was no such thing as the "Stitching Standard" in the Third Reich

Agreed.

With that in mind, it should be a simple task to identify if the same sewing thread, sewing machine and operator made all these alleged fake covers.

So why doesn't someone just take some macro photos of the sewing of 3 or 4 examples of these "fakes" so that we can compare and make our own minds up?

Simple!

**Willi Z.** · 04-11-2016, 06:24 AM

This is why the hobby is so plagued by fakes. There are always defenders of the fakes who are fooled by the fakers, and then marginalize the efforts of those who have intimate behind the scenes knowledge and first hand experience with the fakers and their products. Many of the latter have to keep their mouths shut and can't "spill the beans" for various reasons.

**jacquesf** · 04-11-2016, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post

This is why the hobby is so plagued by fakes. There are always defenders of the fakes who are fooled by the fakers, and then marginalize the efforts of those who have intimate behind the scenes knowledge and first hand experience with the fakers and their products. Many of the latter have to keep their mouths shut and can't "spill the beans" for various reasons.

Amen.

**ironcross13** · 04-11-2016, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by leib1 View Post

Put together
http://www.hannahsreich.co.uk/viewph...ph=3726&phqu=9
Near mint
http://www.hannahsreich.co.uk/viewph...h=3676&phqu=10

Are you saying these covers are real or fake i don't get it.

**RobertE** · 04-11-2016, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post

This is why the hobby is so plagued by fakes. There are always defenders of the fakes who are fooled by the fakers, and then marginalize the efforts of those who have intimate behind the scenes knowledge and first hand experience with the fakers and their products. Many of the latter have to keep their mouths shut and can't "spill the beans" for various reasons.

No one is defending the fakes, just asking WHAT EVIDENCE is being presented that proves that Lorenzo manufactured and knowingly distributed fake camo items. Pretty simple, and that's supposed to be the aim of this thread based on the title and initial statements.

Being the most vocal doesn't make you an expert. Demonstrated expertise in a area does. So far, no matter how much readers are redirected back to the sludge of half-baked statements, there is no authoritative argument as to why certain posters say Lorenzo made these covers, and knowingly peddled them as real.

Accusing me and others of covering for fakers simply because we won't drink the Kool-Aid is shallow and mean-spirited. I can post linked threads in other areas of the WAF where meaningful discussion by experts is provided and acknowledged for items at least as rare as those being discussed in this thread. This "I've got a secret, and secret knowledge, and secret friends who can't come forward" is not helpful towards convincing me there is any substance to the general statements provided in this thread.

s/f Robert

**17thairborne** · 04-11-2016, 09:01 AM

Weighing in after reading weeks of these discussions. I do not collect SS or high end items, but read these threads to gain knowledge and avoid pitfalls. From my perspective the details provided regarding the methodology of construction of these covers cast serious doubt as to the authenticity of the covers in question. Examination of originals by others, knowledge of sewing and manufacturing techniques of the 40's and comparison of those details to recent sewing machine patterns and idiosyncrasies can provide doubt beyond a reasonable suspicion.

It may not prove WHO made the covers, but it is enough for me to want to avoid having one (or any because of the doubt). If some of you want to hang on your notion that doubt is not enough, that is your choice.

Yes, these are serious allegations, and I am still wondering where are all the high end dealers who purchased and passed these on later who are defending the covers. Typically, when something is in doubt, one would turn to the indicators that remove the doubt. I have yet to see that. Its almost as if some are "pleading the 5th".

To me, the key points regarding real or not lie in the images portraying the angle of the cloth's orientation and the machine sewing patterns of the thread. Those were enough for me to decide to stay away. In the meanwhile I await the evidence provided that refutes these suppositions. This isn't court, so innocent until proven guilty carries no weight! THis is about the integrity of the collecting community

What I do know, is that it takes bollocks to point out these types of concerns and if no one is willing to do so in the hobby, then it will continue to be tainted by this aura of complicity among collectors. If the community piles on like dogs against one who is pointing such things out, who will want to stand up and be counted. We will all suffer in the end along with this hobby.

Let us see the defense by those who own these covers. Grab you bollocks and post your cover here and make your points here. We could all learn from your comments.

**leib1** · 04-11-2016, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by 17thairborne View Post

Weighing in after reading weeks of these discussions. I do not collect SS or high end items, but read these threads to gain knowledge and avoid pitfalls. From my perspective the details provided regarding the methodology of construction of these covers cast serious doubt as to the authenticity of the covers in question. Examination of originals by others, knowledge of sewing and manufacturing techniques of the 40's and comparison of those details to recent sewing machine patterns and idiosyncrasies can provide doubt beyond a reasonable suspicion.

It may not prove WHO made the covers, but it is enough for me to want to avoid having one (or any because of the doubt). If some of you want to hang on your notion that doubt is not enough, that is your choice.

Yes, these are serious allegations, and I am still wondering where are all the high end dealers who purchased and passed these on later who are defending the covers. Typically, when something is in doubt, one would turn to the indicators that remove the doubt. I have yet to see that. Its almost as if some are "pleading the 5th".

To me, the key points regarding real or not lie in the images portraying the angle of the cloth's orientation and the machine sewing patterns of the thread. Those were enough for me to decide to stay away. In the meanwhile I await the evidence provided that refutes these suppositions. This isn't court, so innocent until proven guilty carries no weight! THis is about the integrity of the collecting community

What I do know, is that it takes bollocks to point out these types of concerns and if no one is willing to do so in the hobby, then it will continue to be tainted by this aura of complicity among collectors. If the community piles on like dogs against one who is pointing such things out, who will want to stand up and be counted. We will all suffer in the end along with this hobby.

Let us see the defense by those who own these covers. Grab you bollocks and post your cover here and make your points here. We could all learn from your comments.

Well Said ! Hits the nail on the head

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Camo coming from Lorenzo - Helmet cover

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