SS tunic

[NickG]

Yes you have shown that page and I have even reposted it myself and underlined it as it as talks exclusively talks about artillery batteries in DR...
(I understand Dutch as you know...not worth translating into English..)
[1] It does NOT talk about Roekens as an untersturmfuhrer in an infantry Regiment (white farbe as shown), its an artillery related page...
[2] as a matter of fact it does NOT even mention Roekens ANYWHERE. Am I missing something? Sorry but I am puzzled!
Are you posting the wrong page? or is it me?

If you have more (and better) research, by all means please share it...It will help sell your uniform as a DR piece (as opposed to Wiking)!
Underline what ever is on this page in relationship to Roekens! (and DR connection)
We've asked to disclose all documentation. We are here to help (I am). I like such mysteries! and I want to learn too!
even adding my own docs to the discussion which obviously were Wiking related papers...a mis-match but tied in nicely with the tag,
now that it is deciphered completely! You are very welcome! !

and if I overlooked, missed something I sincerely apologize!
but as far as I can tell it adds nothing to the discussion: Roekens AFTER serving in Wiking Art.Reg 5 in abteilung IV)...??? DR Infantry?

[Ray76]

I say again; try lowlandsmilitaria.be
There are some collectors on that forum who have had personal contact with former volunteers.
Maybe someone there can help you with the story of Roecken.
Perhaps somebody even knew him in person.
As we say in Holland; niet geschoten is altijd mis

[blackadder]

Ray, I'm not going to sign in on another forum, especialy not the Lowlands militaria forum after the debacle from a few years bag. The cuff is either good or its bad.
And the problem here is: "What the boer niet kent, dat vreet hij niet".
( for the none dutch guys, we have saying that will roughly translates in "The farmer does not eat what he does not know". )

Nothing against the belgian collectors community, but this is an international forum with a lot of experienced collectors and I also mailed and PM-ed alot with some belgian collectors who do not understand all this crap but would rather not post their knowledge because they do not want to get involved. I respect that, not that I agree, but I respect that.

But, I will think its time go let it rest. We did the best we can, selling it as honest as we can... the damage is already done. There is nothing to bring to the table that will solve or proof anything any more. So, good bye and good luck

[Felix]

That is really the biggest pile of horse dung i have ever stumbled across

That would automatically mean that ALLLLLL the ONE OF ONE items are FAKE ! Because that is what you saying here. So Herman Görings stick, Adolf's summer cap, all camo items other then standard issue... these are ALLLLL FAKE !
And besides, since when is vet bring back a solid provenance.

Great, that is good to know So each and every item we buy that is unique is in fact FAKE Sjieaaaattt

Felix is absolutely wrong!

Really BA? If you make such a comment you actually have to back that up in some kind of way. Ok, maybe not, as I dont take you too seriosuly. Youre into this because of business and has to defend what ever you have. A bit blinded, he continues to fight, and he does not see the light.

You reason like a sour child who got his bag of candy stolen. Grow up and take this in a mature way! You sound like youre quite new to collecting. Every collector that is seasoned and smart (yes that very combination) knows that the burden of prof lies with the one trying to claim something is original. Not vice versa. Let that sunk into your mind because thats how it is. To talk about Görings stick is not relevant here. We are talking about that very repro cuff title that sits on a tunic you try to sell. Every item has to stand on its own merits, technically and construction wise, and vet stories are no provenance unless you took it yourself or it is documented beyond any reasonable doubt.

Actually what you do to yourself and your sale and your reputation here is not very smart. I understand that your frustrated, but youre far better off beoing open and listen to advice given by some advanced seasoned collectors. Smart online dealers knows this - and are quick to remove any doubtful items for sale - that will destroy their reputation and hence cost a lot more.

You have a cuff title that you cant prove as original and that means - its not original! Not until solid rock hard evidence comes forward. Thats how it works what ever you think or wish how it would be. That judgement is not yours to make. Others will make the judgement. One practical test is if there is anyone willing to buy and swallow all of your skills to explain if its original or not.


//Felix

[Ray76]

No problem Blackadder, i understand. Wish i could give you the answer.
But my knowledge is in the learning stage. Just collecting for 16 months now.
I agree that the damage is allready done. It's a shame. I had seen the tunic on Mark his website,
i still find it an amazing beautiful piece.
Maybe i see you in the future. I always look on your adds on a Dutch selling website.
Love your helmets. I am saving for one now. So maybe we meet.
Grtz Ray

[blackadder]

It is funny you say this, it almost sounds like you make the rules in the collecting world. Strange I never heard your name before.

It is my believe you chance 'the rules' because you simply cannot proof its is a fake... that would be very easy to turn the table and blame it on me. Well, wake up, it does not work this way. Especially when you starting to insult me, this makes you look very stupid and immature.

Strange thing is that received several PM's from members telling me not to worry because the thing is real. Rather odd... Good luck collecting Felix, your the expert

[Marcel Banziger]

Both sides, both pro and contra the cuff have valid points and I, willing to learn a lot on this, still wonder, why is there no cuff shown that makes this cuff clearly look fake or clearly look real? The fakes shown so far are not similar.

I looked at the cuff carefully in hands and no signs of any residue of glue or whatever is there to be honest. Just some slight form of corrosion which can also be seen on some shoulderboards or Luftwaffe collartabs for example (impossible to see good on provided pics). That together with quite some build up of dust. Of course that could've been since f.e. the 80's or whatever as well but it's for sure not something from recent years.

Impressed with Nick's research about this soldier which makes things very interesting. I follow this thread with close interest. It's a puzzle with pieces falling together yet still some pieces are also still missing (ghost heer eagle without any stitch holes except for 2 tiny pinholes on top - inspected it very closely), Waffenfarbe of Infantry and a cuff which is or isn't real (has so far my benefit of the doubt since the fakes do not resemble this one).

Curious how this evolves.

[Felix]

It is funny you say this, it almost sounds like you make the rules in the collecting world. Strange I never heard your name before.

It is my believe you chance 'the rules' because you simply cannot proof its is a fake... that would be very easy to turn the table and blame it on me. Well, wake up, it does not work this way. Especially when you starting to insult me, this makes you look very stupid and immature.

Strange thing is that received several PM's from members telling me not to worry because the thing is real. Rather odd... Good luck collecting Felix, your the expert

I certainly dont make the rules but I have explained for you how it works. Because I understand the rules. You dont. Thats the difference between you and me.

The bottom line here is that a highly doubtful Das Reich cuff title, to put it very mildly, sits on a jacket you try to sell and a member asked for comments about it and comments were given. A lot of collectors has commented. If an item is not original, or cant be proven as original, its very good that the correct info comes forward.

All of those claiming it to be original and not to worry, here or in PMs, have not placed any evidence for the cuff title. Im sure one of them will buy the tunic with the wonderful original Das Reich cuff title, or perhaps they only talk?

BA, do you buy items like this yourself, that there is no prof of as being originals? Ok, its not my business what you collect or how you collect - but it does not soud like a good plan for an all original collection.

Why dont you keep the jacket yourself? If its real and untouched and with original cuff title it is one heck of a tunic and a dream collectible. I collect Das Reich myself, and guess if I got curious. until I saw....

Cheers
//Felix

[blackadder]

Please show me where I can find those set of rules Felix, i probably must have missed those. There must be a list of rules here on the forum that show that an item needs to be proven authentic, otherwise it is fake. Obviously you can provide me with a link so I can read them one by one.

Why don't you keep this jacket yourself ? Please take your time to read back my answers and in there will lay your answer.
do you buy items like this yourself, that there is no prof of as being originals?
You don't know the price we bought it for but it is not up to you what I do in my personal life.

Not everyone has near 10k laying around to spend on an old jacket... that might be the case.

But, back to the cufftitle, because that seems to be the problem and since you collect Das Reich... and you claim to be an expert ( i will believe that )... why is it that there are NO simular Cuff's to be found. If you want to fake an item, there are more. Not only one. Agreed ?
So, say... this is the ONLY one around, would that make it fake ? Because that is what you keep saying. I have searched the entire net for a simular copy that i can use as 'proof' since those are the rules. Well, I cannot find any. But... that does not mean there aren't any.
You, on the other hand must have done a simular job in searching for a fake cufftitle that matches our, right ?
So, we both do the same and we both came out empty handed.

What does that tell us ? ( and I know you are going to say, well its fake... and i'm going to say it is rare. )

[Felix]

[QUOTE=Marcel Banziger;7024622]Both sides, both pro and contra the cuff have valid points and I, willing to learn a lot on this, still wonder, why is there no cuff shown that makes this cuff clearly look fake or clearly look real? The fakes shown so far are not similar.

The pro defenders of the cuff title has in fact not presented any single evidence leaning towards that it can be an original and has therefore no valid points at all. The only wild connection is that it sita on a tunic that is supposed to have solid documentation, and guilt by association, or hence original because of that. A roumor also says a similar one is in a Mollo book but no one has shown that. With that said its not a prof of originality.

You must have missed that the weave pattern of the black base cloth of the cuff title matches fake patterns. You must have missed that the technology which the cuff title is made with is rather impossible if you dont like a flimsy text with lose sloppy threads (since it lacks horizontal lops to fix it). No war time embroiderer would have made a cuff title like that. All other cuff titles hand embroidered in bullion are constructed differently because of that very reason. It also tries to mimic a true flat wire cuff title and thats a red flag in itself. There is no reason to do so and other bullion cuff titles do not have this trait.

Whats seemed logic, to fix the long vertical bullion threads, was what looked like glue. Really very clearly did it look like glue from the photos as well. I have not seen in hand and Im surprised that you say its not glue. How on earth would long vertical bullion threads on a lose background like a cuff title stay in place after a few days of use without a method of fixation? I still think there can glue used for this purpose.

D-arn, why do I even waste my time with this matter....

//Felix

[blackadder]

you are welcome to spend your holiday in Holland and inspect it in hand.

[Sjking]

.

Hi BA,

The onus is surely on proving its real as you are selling the tunic with a rare "original" bullion cuff title, emulating a flatwire.

It's not up to anyone to prove its fake, it's you who have to convince a prospective buyer that it's REAL.

Felix is a very knowlegable collector whose has given you sound advice on its originality etc..

cheers
S

[Marcel Banziger]

[QUOTE=Felix;7024672]

Both sides, both pro and contra the cuff have valid points and I, willing to learn a lot on this, still wonder, why is there no cuff shown that makes this cuff clearly look fake or clearly look real? The fakes shown so far are not similar.

The pro defenders of the cuff title has in fact not presented any single evidence leaning towards that it can be an original and has therefore no valid points at all. The only wild connection is that it sita on a tunic that is supposed to have solid documentation, and guilt by association, or hence original because of that. A roumor also says a similar one is in a Mollo book but no one has shown that. With that said its not a prof of originality.

You must have missed that the weave pattern of the black base cloth of the cuff title matches fake patterns. You must have missed that the technology which the cuff title is made with is rather impossible if you dont like a flimsy text with lose sloppy threads (since it lacks horizontal lops to fix it). No war time embroiderer would have made a cuff title like that. All other cuff titles hand embroidered in bullion are constructed differently because of that very reason. It also tries to mimic a true flat wire cuff title and thats a red flag in itself. There is no reason to do so and other bullion cuff titles do not have this trait.

Whats seemed logic, to fix the long vertical bullion threads, was what looked like glue. Really very clearly did it look like glue from the photos as well. I have not seen in hand and Im surprised that you say its not glue. How on earth would long vertical bullion threads on a lose background like a cuff title stay in place after a few days of use without a method of fixation? I still think there can glue used for this purpose.

D-arn, why do I even waste my time with this matter....

//Felix

I am no expert on cuffs, you among others are the person to go to for that. Yet, what I said is that I have not seen any fake cuff shown that is similar to the one in this thread. So no sound evidence there either.

About the glue. I remember several pages ago there was a photo worked on in Paint showing evidence of glue. Well, that's no glue for sure. One doesn't need to be an expert on cuffs to see if something is glue. Having worked with many glues myself I can say that shown on those Paint photos is no glue. I did see however corrosion like I said before.

[Felix]

Please show me where I can find those set of rules Felix, i probably must have missed those. There must be a list of rules here on the forum that show that an item needs to be proven authentic, otherwise it is fake. Obviously you can provide me with a link so I can read them one by one.

Most collectors know these rules or discover them after they have become seasoned and/ or hanged around on forums for a number of years. 10 years should be enough in most cases. Some fails to learn though, no matter what.

Why don't you keep this jacket yourself ? Please take your time to read back my answers and in there will lay your answer.
do you buy items like this yourself, that there is no prof of as being originals?
You don't know the price we bought it for but it is not up to you what I do in my personal life.

Its certainly not my my business what you collect or how you collect. But I was a bit curious - because it seemed like quite strange behavoiur

Not everyone has near 10k laying around to spend on an old jacket... that might be the case.

If all original and no questions or problems, 10 K is a bargain and a serious collector would have tossed up the cash. IF....

But, back to the cufftitle, because that seems to be the problem and since you collect Das Reich... and you claim to be an expert ( i will believe that )... why is it that there are NO simular Cuff's to be found. If you want to fake an item, there are more. Not only one. Agreed ?
So, say... this is the ONLY one around, would that make it fake ? Because that is what you keep saying. I have searched the entire net for a simular copy that i can use as 'proof' since those are the rules. Well, I cannot find any. But... that does not mean there aren't any.
You, on the other hand must have done a simular job in searching for a fake cufftitle that matches our, right ?
So, we both do the same and we both came out empty handed.

What does that tell us ? ( and I know you are going to say, well its fake... and i'm going to say it is rare. )

What I would have done is to search for any similar cuff title that can be proven as original. I would spend time study all verified original Das Reich cuff titles. I would spend my energy that way, and not so much energy on finding a similar fake.
I have also made a summary of the problematic points in my previous post about the cuff title in question. And of course again - where is a similar cuff title found that is also a known original?

Again, its not you or me who make the "un spoken" rules that I wrote about above and previously. A lot of collcetors understands them. Usually the kind of collectors who understands are very careful with what they buy and often have very nice originals in their collections.

I will seriously try again, to make this the last post from me in this thread. All is rather obvious for those keen on details.

Amen, peace, over and out
//Felix

[Dr. Strangelove]

Felix

Actually Felix is an Expert.