Announcement

**blackadder** · 07-23-2015, 04:24 PM

its just dust and build up Nick, i cant make more of it, doesnt look like glue. the H has a large portiom of it on the straight up leg. i understand that this could be mistaken for glue on your screen... but it isnt.

as for the eagle... there is NO evidence of it being sewed to the jacket what ever the slight discolarisation. in my opinion there has never been an eagle attached to the jacket from what i can tell.

As for the other Roekens, it all stands and falls with the cuff. if the cuff is PROOVEN to be bad, the entire thing is put together or restored. But I ( we ) have great confidence and ao are still convinced it all adds up and is a very strange but rare configuration that has never been tempered with.

**blackadder** · 07-23-2015, 04:29 PM

felix, that is easy said... you say its fake... you proof its fake, that is the way its gonna be.
please provide me with pictures of simular cts that are labeled bad. since you are so confinced, you must have some solid ground you are standing on. if its fake then there are other examples known that are exact the same. one does not program a machine just to make one simple cuff... then there are more !

dont turn the ball around and getting it on my neck.

This cuff is 100% authentic untill solid proof is given it not to be and im more then willing to accept.

**Felix** · 07-23-2015, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by blackadder View Post

felix, that is easy said... you say its fake... you proof its fake, that is the way its gonna be.
please provide me with pictures of simular cts that are labeled bad. since you are so confinced, you must have some solid ground you are standing on. if its fake then there are other examples known that are exact the same. one does not program a machine just to make one simple cuff... then there are more !

dont turn the ball around and getting it on my neck.

This cuff is 100% authentic untill solid proof is given it not to be and im more then willing to accept.

Thats not easy said - my observations are from a lot of studies and gained knowledge.

The burden of prof certainly lies with the one claiming it to be original - and thats your part or those who believe in them. Please come forward with evidence.

Thats the world of collecting 100 % original SS insignias and third reich in general. No space for second guessing.

The cuff title in question does not pass - Its a reproduction until otherwise is shown.

Thats all.

//Felix

**NickG** · 07-23-2015, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by blackadder View Post

as for the eagle... there is NO evidence of it being sewed to the jacket what ever the slight discolarisation. in my opinion there has never been an eagle attached to the jacket from what i can tell.

.

The definition of Denial

Denial involves blocking external events from awareness. If some situation is just too much to handle, the person just refuses to experience it. As you might imagine, this is a primitive and dangerous defense - no one disregards reality and gets away with it for long! It can operate by itself or, more commonly, in combination with other, more subtle mechanisms that support it. For example, smokers may refuse to admit to themselves that smoking is bad for their health.

Attached Files

20150723_143326_resized.jpg (93.2 KB, 340 views)

**blackadder** · 07-23-2015, 04:52 PM

there goes the paint program again... my favorit aly.
do you see holes where the stitching of the eagle was ?
im not saying there is no discorarisation, on the conrtary... i supplyd these images to show there is no sign of it being sewed ON the jacket, and NOT that there is no sign of an eagle present. i stated that right from the start.

so please leave your denail mumbo jumbo for what it is. thank you...

**NickG** · 07-23-2015, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by blackadder View Post

do you see holes where the stitching of the eagle was ?:

Yes! Why is this even being discussed????? Note needle damage (pulls)!
The white holes (inverted color image) are the stitch holes and that's besides the point, visible or not, the contrast with fading is proof it was there...
What's the point of this?

Originally posted by blackadder View Post

As for the other Roekens, it all stands and falls with the cuff. if the cuff is PROOVEN to be bad, the entire thing is put together or restored.

Yes it's the CT that makes or breaks this uniform (apart from the eagle issue..) I still vote Wallonien, ex Heer! Herr Doctor!!
So ditch the CT! and it remains a spectacular find with to me, with an undeniable a Belgian connection.
They just picked the wrong Unterfuhrer when it was restored 30 years ago or so....no internet... I remain an ally! Vredespijp!)

Attached Files

**darekm** · 07-23-2015, 05:21 PM

Similar style of embroidery to this:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=467653

or this:

http://www.soldat.com/Abz%20Das%20Reich.htm

**Robert H** · 07-23-2015, 05:54 PM

Interesting to see the size of defending everything about this tunic over 5 6 7 8... pages.

When I would have a tunic where I know all is about original I would not waste my time to defend anything, just love it or leave it.

**NickG** · 07-23-2015, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by Robert H View Post

Interesting to see the size of defending everything about this tunic over 5 6 7 8... pages.

When I would have a tunic where I know all is about original I would not waste my time to defend anything, just love it or leave it.

Well ask yourself this question: when was the last time you saw a potentially extremely rare BELGIAN legion tunic with BELGIAN parts and a BELGIAN name written in a BELGIAN way,
surfacing from BELGIUM ? I think it has extremely good potential but restored to the wrong "Roekens" name officer at a time when there was no internet.
They probably picked the name and officer history from one of the old Jan Vincx books at the time...(covering Flemish "Bad Tolz Lehrgang" members) when it was put back together.
Lets face it many got put back together!(restored), especially SS... Probably over 90% got stripped of their evil insignia. That is the reality!

That's why I am eagerly following this thread and insisting on them researching the other officer candidate. Fits the bill perfectly for me: ex Heer, Sturmbrigade Wallonie Doctor!
I have been hammering that idea from the very beginning but they got stuck on this cuff title + name match which makes no sense in combination with a Heer adler ghost!
To me that was a red flag on page 1 (when I brought it up), stating that it was a shame that it wasn't Wallonien Legion related, until I found that other (matching) name!
I would not give up on this piece!
If it not had all those positive connections it would have been another wannabe Heer to SS uniforms but it still has potential...(connecting dots) Just some iffy parts (CT)!

**John Pic** · 07-23-2015, 10:43 PM

Officers who attended the Heer war schools wore the breast eagle and the sleeve eagle at the same time...lots of photo proof of that. Otto Weidinger wore a heer uniform when he attended one of the schools do you think he threw it out after?

**blackadder** · 07-24-2015, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by Robert H View Post

Interesting to see the size of defending everything about this tunic over 5 6 7 8... pages.

When I would have a tunic where I know all is about original I would not waste my time to defend anything, just love it or leave it.

Aaah, I see. You should have told me this earlier, would have spared me quit some valuable time. So, if i understand you correctly... you would advise me just to accept these opinions based on nothing.

there is nothing wrong with a good discussion as long as it is based on facts and not pulled out of the air. People have the right to quistion these expensive items and i have the right to defend it and provide with pictures that show it as best i can. We have it in hand and are still convinced, you must do it with the pictures i provide and cannot feel or touch it. In the mean time, our jacket is destroyed and stained by questionble facts that are based on nothing but thin air. Do I feel satisfied with that ? No... Do i have to agree with that ? No... although that would have made it a lot easier for you guys.

**NickG** · 07-24-2015, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by John Pic View Post

Officers who attended the Heer war schools wore the breast eagle and the sleeve eagle at the same time...lots of photo proof of that. Otto Weidinger wore a heer uniform when he attended one of the schools do you think he threw it out after?

Are you talking about the Heeres Kriegsschule or Kriegsacademy? Well it really does not matter John...For the latter you would need to have served 3 years at least (as a professional soldier) and that was the track to pursue for a career in the General staff...and you are right about that,
SS officers attending courses at such institutions could/would wear a Heer pattern breast eagle on their SS uniform while doing their training through such an army facility. (so 2 eagles worn! actually not a lot of photographic evidence of this practice but yes it was done on occassion)
Weidinger btw was a professional soldier, lieutenant in 1938, Captain in 1940...so an officer in pre-war years...The majority of Flemish volunteers on the other hand were NOT professional soldiers (no prior military training) ...just freiwilligen...most did not go beyond the rank of Captain.
You have exceptions of course (Degrelle, Walloon, but his career sky-rocketed because of his political "stardom" + battle field heroism)

Either way it would be a far-fetched idea for one of these Germanic volunteers to go through such an institution. Your theory does not apply here... One with the artillery back ground...(tunic inf. white farbe still not clarified) rose through the ranks and ended up at Bad Tolz for a Fuhrer lehrgang (where the majority of Flemish volunteers got their officers training at this SS facility) and the other was a medical student who had not yet graduated (was not an official doctor yet when he volunteered (hence the Unterartz title...= "under-doctor" )and completed his medical training through a military medical school, no doubt at Heer facility because the Walloon transition from Heer to W-SS had not happened yet ...which explains the breast eagle ghost perfectly...or as some theorize its a "hand-me-down" 2nd hand army uniform of a Das Reich officer, for me a highly unlikely explanation!
Still in intriguing uniform !

**Mike C** · 07-24-2015, 09:51 AM

The mixture of Heer and SS-VT eagles was a unique (and rare) pre-war phenomena - as can be seen in the period photographs. At the time, the SS had yet to develop the massive training and educational system that was in place by the early '40s and thus it made sense for a very few (and exclusively German SS-VT) officers to attend Army specialist schools.

mike

**EiSVOGEL'** · 07-24-2015, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Felix View Post

Its actually a bit silly to discuss the cuff title further. Its a reproduction.

If you dont think so, please come forward with solid evidence.

It goes in the repro bin until that.

//Felix

Long time no hear but I'm back

Hope you guys are well.
I have to totally agree with Felix, the cufftitle is a reproduction which tries to look like
a flatwire cufftitle. Band material and embroidery are typical for those fakes. I actually can't believe why there was such a long discussion about it..?
Believe Felix, Bob etc. and believe me, it's not a rare version, its simply a fake and that is for sure

Best regards

**NickG** · 07-24-2015, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Mike C View Post

The mixture of Heer and SS-VT eagles was a unique (and rare) pre-war phenomena - as can be seen in the period photographs. At the time, the SS had yet to develop the massive training and educational system that was in place by the early '40s and thus it made sense for a very few (and exclusively German SS-VT) officers to attend Army specialist schools.

mike

Good point...So besides the career issues raised also the timing... too early for such a scenario to occur with Germanic Freiwilligen! So a prewar scenario exclusively. That breast eagle explanation is a dead-end. W-SS soldiers did attend Army facilities on occasion for specialist training for whatever reason during the war years,. An example would be a W-SS funker who went through an army radio school and was entitled to wear an army pattern radio blitz instead of the SS raute (diamond) version...it happened but very rare. Overtime the SS became independent!
The SS had indeed established their own wide ranging training facilities during the war, to include even a SS-Hochgebirgsschule. Totally self-reliant!

Originally posted by EiSVOGEL' View Post

I have to totally agree with Felix, the cufftitle is a reproduction which tries to look like
a flatwire cufftitle. Band material and embroidery are typical for those fakes.

So based on the verdict it is
[1] ex-Heer tunic, bad CT...so a wannabe Heer to SS conversion or
[2] its Leg.Wallonie (who for the most part did not wear CT's) so incorrectly restored to the wring Roekens, or
[3] for those who believe that a Das Reich officer whould wear an ex Heer private purchase tunic, it's JRoekens tunic restored
with a bad Das Reich CT.
I would look for signs under the CT and see what the wool looks like!

Announcement

SS tunic

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread