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**Bob Hritz** · 07-25-2015, 12:27 PM

Hritz's Razor of Relative Value:

Any items value is in equal obverse relation to the length of its explanation.

To make it simple; the longer you have to explain, the shorter the value.

Bob Hritz

**blackadder** · 07-25-2015, 12:34 PM

You could also explain this by saying that by all those unbased opinions that jacket gets worthless. Not because the jacket is less original... because of the big stain it gets by non funded comments liked showed here before.

Please, show me some cufftitels that are an exact match to this and are marked post war copy and i'm ready to throw that towel in the ring.

The last picture of those 2 cufftitels is just hilarious... what a waste.

**Mike C** · 07-25-2015, 12:35 PM

Yep and closely related to Occam's Razor: "Other things being equal, simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones."

Mike

**NickG** · 07-25-2015, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Mike C View Post

"...and as far as the waffen farbe. what kind of people run with and around those tanks ? "

Those wearing Deutschland (SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 3) and Der Fuhrer (SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 4) cufftitles of course...

Mike

Exactly... hard headed type...

Originally posted by blackadder View Post

and their waffen farbe ?

Well white of course...you really don't have a clue how its supposed to work, do you?

I am sure there are exceptions and a lowly Untersturmfuhrer might have preferred the parent company CT as opposed to his Regiment because it looked cooler but it was not per the rules...and I know those can be bent...but its just another discrepancy (besides the waffenfarbe, besides the pattern of the CT..."look-a-like' flat weave...)

Since you are Dutch let me explain it to you this way:

A Nederland Division staff officer, (higher rank than Lt! btw (with white inf laufbahn waffenfarbe) had the choice to maintain his regimental title
(like De Ruyter) for sentimental reasons... or upgrade to a Division level parent "Nederland" CT when he got promoted to a staff position.
A LOWLY platoon commander in an infantry regiment would usually wear his Regimental cuff title (De Ruyter or Gen Seyffhart)...
besides staff positions: a Divisional FLAK officer or supply officer or (bridge building) engineering officer is a Divisional asset
and therefor more likely to wear the HIGHER cuff title...of the PARENT unit. This is the 3rd time its explained...
Again exceptions are possible...but its a possible issue too!

So nothing on the white waffenfarbe issue in the papers???? (Flak Ersatz und Ausbuilding Das Reich officer), 4th time asked!

**phild** · 07-25-2015, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post

Hritz's Razor of Relative Value:

Any items value is in equal obverse relation to the length of its explanation.

To make it simple; the longer you have to explain, the shorter the value.

Bob Hritz

Very true, but the other part of this is: The length of explanation needed (or demanded) is directly in proportion to the level of knowledge of the person or persons questioning the item.

I for one have had "collectors" argue with me that feldgrau was supposed to more like "Cadet Gray" as opposed to green-gray.....a color they said the Germans never wore......their knowledge went down from there by the way! Granted this was 35+ years ago and long before the internet or even color reference books, but these types are still with us in numbers.

**NickG** · 07-25-2015, 01:45 PM

Never mind.. (per 1944 organizational chart)
3rd SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment = Deutschland = inf = white
4th SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment = Der Führer = inf = white

2nd regiment = Pz ....so pink farbe! Cant explain it after all...Sorry!
They wore parent CT's!

Still odd that he would transfer from FLAK to Inf...

**John Pic** · 07-25-2015, 01:58 PM

Actually Bob the explanation has been shorter than the critique so your Razor is not applicable here. Besides I see the same players who deem something real in 2 seconds and saying things like, "the value is whatever the owner want's it to be". Or "You couldn't buy an untouched one for near that price". In this case the price according to your RAZOR is a bargain....heck anyone who sells fake cloth insignias above the $100 range should know that.

**NickG** · 07-25-2015, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by blackadder View Post

You could also explain this by saying that by all those unbased opinions that jacket gets worthless. Not because the jacket is less original... because of the big stain it gets by non funded comments liked showed here before.

Aside from the CT being a "possible" or "probable" issue piece (good suggestion posting it on a Belgian forum you never know...keep us posted! please!)
the comments on waffenfarbe change (branch change = laufbahn (career) change and cufftitle of the parent formation are valid questions...
= valid comments
but blatantly ignored which tells me that you do NOT have an explanation for it...even though you show "piles" of supporting back up paperwork
in your sales thread and some detail pages that talk about artillery (battery)????

Its like offering a yellow piped communications tunic and showing the mans career in panzers throughout the training and posting period...
It just does not add up...So nothing in the documents on this? (5th and last time I will ask). Anyway good luck! Last post!
PS: btw farbes can change of course...person gets wounded, goes into a different branch, like from infantry to administration (because of wound),
not applicable here...(its the other way around...you show an infantry tunic of a Flak member with Flak documentation) of course that raises questions! (valid comments!)

**blackadder** · 07-25-2015, 03:59 PM

Last post ? Great...

I was hoping that since page 2.
I'm not ignoring it... i'm simply ignoring you mr Paint ( well, technicaly now i don't ...

)

We do not have an explanation or paperwork that will explain the this waffen-farbe. There is nothing in our paper work that suggest otherwise but i already told you that before.
The only logical explanation is that it is sewed in late, might suggest another branch switch that we do not have on paper since it goes as late as ending 1944 and since the man survived it is possible that he was moved / transfered again. Hell, even luftwaffe ground personal where signed into fallschirmjäger units, do you believe they obtained other piping and all for being so ? nahhh...

You keep swinging that hammer trying to break something here. Untill now, it only got damaged. Damaged so far that potential buyers must have back-up by so many theories out of you magical window 95 paint program saying you are trying to help.

Sewing marks that are not there... glue residue that is not there... labels which we supposedly sewed in our selfs, magically changing names in the label, hand writings that where not from that time... ?! THERE WAS A WAR GOING !!!

I can quit understand that you all think i'm one stubborn s.o.a.b.
That might just be the truth, however... why should I take someones opinion about a cufftitle that can not and still has not been backed-up with proof of existence. I can remember a similar topic of a wehrmacht camo helmet i once owned that i had to defend in a similar fashion, in the end... it turned out one very fine and rare specimen.

All those theories and opinions might just be based on years of experience and believe me... I respect that very much, I really do. But as long as there is not a single shred of proof for stamping this postwar / fake or put together it is still an original. I do believe there is nothing wrong with defending your own property where we paid a lot of bucks for. Please do also look on the other side of the card here.

**Bob Hritz** · 07-25-2015, 04:17 PM

Go to www.totls.com and request photos of his flatwire cuff titles. It has been a number of years since I examined his wares. but you may see such hand embroidered cuff titles in the flatwire type. Of, you could send him photos of your title. He has been in the reproduction SS insignia business for decades and can tell you if this is post war work or not. There has been hundreds of post war attempts to create different patterns of SS cuff titles and there will be more.

I have no desire to hurt your tunic and I think you are asking a fair price for it. The rare sleeve eagle and the collar tabs and shoulder boards, alone, are worth close to your price.

Believe me, I take no pleasure in disappointing anyone. I have made enough mistakes, learning my field, that I know, very well, the sting of getting less than I thought.

Bob Hritz

**judas** · 07-25-2015, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by blackadder View Post

Nick,

You seem to be an expert with your theories.
We, a friend of mine and I bought this jacket straight from IMCS militaria where you got your pictures from. No hush hush from that, that is absolutly right.
The jacket was sold even before it hit the website! Mark hadn't even CHECKED the inside pocket for the label yet.

Yes, we checked the tunic from top to bottom and alllll the way around an of cource also from inside and out. I find it insulting to insinuate that we added this tag to this jacket !

We did the research with several sources available to us and have it on paper for the buyer to see.

Please, as a fellow dutch man... (although i do not have that feeling ) call Mark and ask him about this himself before starting a wild goose hunt.

Check your sources before you get involved on each and every topic.

This tunic is as it is, unmolested and never been messed with.

Add : As for the Heer jacket, Julien Roekens was promoted to SS-Untersturmführer on 21-06-1944 and would have had a different tunic before that would be my guess. There is not mention of active duty in the Heer in our documentation. All i can say that we believe this jacket must have been used before which is not impossible and there are many cases known on this matter.

may i ask you just brought ? and now selling people wait a long time to get a original tunic

**blackadder** · 07-25-2015, 04:52 PM

if i understand you right, it difficult to read your message, you would like to know why we are selling it if we purchased it only recently ?
well, simple... we both agreed it was a good investment to trade-up for nice helmets, our primary buisness. Sometimes you get an offer you cant refuse ( unless its the godfather method of course )

**blackadder** · 07-25-2015, 05:06 PM

if i understand you right, it difficult to read your message, you would like to know why we are selling it if we purchased it only recently ?
well, simple... we both agreed it was a good investment to trade-up for nice helmets, our primary buisness. Sometimes you get an offer you cant refuse ( unless its the godfather method of course )

**NickG** · 07-25-2015, 05:06 PM

Blackadder, most questions raised (by me) are of an investigative nature, TO HELP solve this riddle, not bad mouthing the tunic as a whole, just some discrepancies that I wanted to address (btw addressed obo other collectors too, who used ME as their mouth piece, some members from Holland even

)...preferring anonymity...(I just don't care about that...I am not a dealer even...)

So it took 120 posts to finally admit you have no answers for the farbe change, fine! That is not a problem, at least we have an answer! Who knows maybe he was indeed transferred and put these boards on himself...it is certainly not tailor quality work, but you can also wonder why he even bothered late war changing these...(from Flak to Inf....especially on a closet survivor dress tunic...Those of course often did not go through changes (like a promotion or transfer ) as fast as a field wear tunic would...those garments just sat waiting for home leave use...and therefor survived!
and sometimes just NOT updated yet! (or not updated at all)
Also many units were so broken up and formed into kampfgruppen (of survivers) nobody bothered about changing waffenfarbes at that point when they were transferred to fill holes in command structure absence situations...THERE WAS A WAR GOING ON! Hodge-podge battle groups...
Who knows? Thanks.
Ik vind het nog steeds een interessant uniform hoor! maar met een hoop vraagtekens en terecht!. Ben nu echt klaar! Succes ermee!

PS: I doubt that "Scotty from the desert", (as he's known here in California ) will cooperate but yes he's been in the biz a long time...I remember him selling his wares at the Great Western in Pomona as far back as 1991-1992...Some very convincing insignia, others obvious fakes..
It remains a dangerous hobby! Good luck to all, seller and prospective buyer! An intriguing piece w/question marks! Over and OUT!

Attached Files

board.jpg (79.8 KB, 261 views)

**NickG** · 07-25-2015, 06:14 PM

Not done after all... Just received a positive (helpful) contribution from Belgium... Thanks Joel! Some pages from a Jan Vincx book that I had mentioned earlier!
So I researched that angle!
Remember me asking about the IV...and its significance...(perhaps medical, the other Roekens officer...) well off the mark! It is unit related! but Artillery!
J.Roekens with no doubt! Again I am asking a lot of questions in order to get people thinking and get answers...That's what I participate to get feedback!
So I looked at the tag again! Now able to decipher your ENTIRE tag! It is NOT a Das Reich related unit tag! Like I stated I love a good mystery!

See I am not your enemy Blackadder! Just doing some investigative research and thanks to other contributors' feedback, (source information)
now able to connect more dots!!!Check this out! Roekens' Battery commander is even listed with an image!

(of course somebody could have taken this info out of a book too....and transferred it, but I trust the tag with the Francophone writing like I wrote earlier with the un-German
capital fonts used. Another good clue!...written by a foreigner in his local style...and you wanted me to quit (participating) on page 2...

BUT it is not Das Reich...it is WIKING...!!! (IV Abteilung in Art.Regiment 5),
You did mention Westland and Wiking in your sales thread as part of the officer's history but the tag was never deciphered properly...Now we know!
(= important provenance!) Of course everybody was focusing on Das Reich, specifically the "bad?" cuff...and wrong farbe boards (relating to his last duty station)

5. SS-Panzer-Division "Wiking", April 1944
SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 9 "Germania"
SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 10 "Westland"
SS-Panzer-Regiment 5
SS-Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 5 .... Ab. IV as it appears in the book!
SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Bataillon "Narwa" (Withdrawn 1944)
SS-Sturmbrigade "Wallonien" (Withdrawn 1944)
SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 5
SS-Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 5
SS-Flak-Abteilung 5
SS-Werfer- (mortar) – Abteilung 5
SS-Panzer-Nachrichten – Abteilung 5
SS-Panzer-Aufklärungs – Abteilung 5
SS-Panzer-Pionier – Battalion 5
SS-Instandsetzungs (repair) – Abteilung 5
SS-Nachschub (supply) – Abteilung 5
SS-Wirtschafts-Battalion 5
SS-Sanitäts (field medical) – Abteilung 5
SS-Feldlazarett (field hospital) 5
SS-Kriegsberichter-Zug 5
SS-Feldgendarmerie-Trupp (military police unit) 5
SS-Feldersatz-Battalion (replacement) 5

So we do have a solid J.Roekens Artillery connection, but the infantry boards are very odd (and replacements, not his laufbahn! = career) Still stumped about that!
The Heer eagle I will accept now as an oddity for a private purchase garment...(eigentumsstuck purchase uniform)

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