SS tunic

[Mike C]

This has him as an officer in the Wiking artillery regiment - which does make sense given his nationality and training.


Blackadder - This being said, does his paperwork show him actually posted to Das Reich?

And for what it is worth, I echo Bob Hritz's last comment...

Mike

[wolfslair44]

This has him as an officer in the Wiking artillery regiment - which does make sense given his nationality and training.


Blackadder - This being said, does his paperwork show him actually posted to Das Reich?

And for what it is worth, I echo Bob Hritz's last comment...

Mike

This could also solve any mystery concerning the CT.

From someone uninvolved in this, I think the discussion has had merit. I don't think it hurts to have it and I am hoping for the owners that everything works out.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Bob

Hritz's Razor of Relative Value:

Any items value is in equal obverse relation to the length of its explanation.

To make it simple; the longer you have to explain, the shorter the value.

Bob Hritz

Oh, how right you are... and you made me laugh!

[NickG]

This could also solve any mystery concerning the CT.
From someone uninvolved in this, I think the discussion has had merit. I don't think it hurts to have it and I am hoping for the owners that everything works out.

I'm back!! Speaking of CT mystery lets try this approach! and focus on the "Das Reich" / "Wiking" (Heer) uniform band material and compare it with a fake.
Band material is important to study as real (blank - SD) bands were used for custom embroidery too... Btw I am not an expert... Just sharing for input!!
The big guns here said it had no chance unfortunately but what if it was a foreign custom embroidered job on real band material? Any chance? now that we have this image?
Image borrowed from Walhalla.se site (posted by HarryV), since it was not shown here before for some reason... A clue?
Walhalla btw is a known helmet site and HarryV & Blackadder (who pooled their money for this piece and convert the sale into more helmets, their prerogative of course)
are for the most part helmet guys..(their forte as collectors) so that might explain for the waffenfarbe discrepancy not being addressed...among other things...
Does this help?

[NickG]

By the way it is too bad that this tunic (if it is what it now appears to be, Wiking artillery) did not surface earlier. Jan Vincx, the well known Flemish author
who passed away in 1996 would have known J.Roekens for sure as he also served as an Untersturmfuhrer... but in Abteilung II, ( Battery 4)
SS-Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 5, 5.SS-Panzer-Division „Wiking“, Waffen-SS.
(Roekens in Abt. IV...per the tag info, now that we know what that means and have a positive unit ID!)

Vincx of course has written extensively about Flemish collaboration after the war but of all the men he served with, no doubt he would have known
Roekens very intimately! Not sure if they went through the same Fuhrer Lehrgang at Bad Tolz...but it is an interesting coincidence...Same age even!
Battle comrades in Wiking Artillery Regiment 5! History now lost! He might have even had an answer for the Heer uniform use oddity...
and Roekens transfer from Wiking to Das Reich (if it even happened!????) Vincx stayed in Wiking where most foreign volunteers found a home!
RIP Jan Pieter Vincx

BTW I just checked! Yes they were together at Bad Tolz, (note different name spelling) as officer cadets! (SS Standarte Oberjunker)!
Jan would have been very approachable and could have given some interesting insight on Roekens! That means they also stayed within the Artillery branch
together (at Wiking) after graduation = RED FARBE! I never knew Jan but heard and read a lot about him when I was living in Belgium (and collecting).
He had a beer distribution company but was an SS vet, history researcher and book publisher in his spare time! I have quite a few of his works...
Very passionate about preserving history (relating to Flemish collaboration and SS battle history)

[blackadder]

Nick I'm going to respond on this a little later but I have to say your previous posts do make sense to me. Regardsless of the cuff, i'm still convinced its a good one. But the Art piece might bring something to the table.
I'm in a bit of a hurry now but will come back to it.

[blackadder]

Okay, i'm back.

Well, to finalize the entire topic i believe its fair to say the following.

• It is a Belgian tailored SS tunic
• The ingsigna are rare belgian made originals
• The name label is original to the jacket and corresponds with his time in the Wiking Regiment
• The Tunic belonged to a belgian volunteer !

On the other hand

• The Cufftitle might or might not be original to the jacket although it is not certain the cuff is bad.
• There has never been a Heer eagle attached to the uniform although faint ghost is visible under the right light.
• The shoulder boards are original but a strange combination considering the history in an artillery regiment from mr. Roekens.

This being said we believe its fair to say that the tunic it self is very rare on it self even tough some of the history keeps shrouded in mystery.

We agreed that a reduction is in order to cover these uncertain things and leave the rest up to the buyer. The buyer may want to fit a nice pair of artillery shoulderboards and a wiking cuff to it... we leave it as it is and sell it as it is.
It is not and has never been our intention to sell something that is not the real deal. We where ( and to a certain level still are ) convinced it being real... otherwise it wasnt fair from us in the beginning and you have to believe me when I say we wouldn't have put so much 'fight' defending something that would not be it.

So, this being said we lowered the price to €9250,- for a quick sell. I believe that is more then fair !

[PMan]

Band material

I'm back!! Speaking of CT mystery lets try this approach! and focus on the "Das Reich" / "Wiking" (Heer) uniform band material and compare it with a fake.
Band material is important to study as real (blank - SD) bands were used for custom embroidery too... Btw I am not an expert... Just sharing for input!!
The big guns here said it had no chance unfortunately but what if it was a foreign custom embroidered job on real band material? Any chance? now that we have this image?
Image borrowed from Walhalla.se site (posted by HarryV), since it was not shown here before for some reason... A clue?
Walhalla btw is a known helmet site and HarryV & Blackadder (who pooled their money for this piece and convert the sale into more helmets, their prerogative of course)
are for the most part helmet guys..(their forte as collectors) so that might explain for the waffenfarbe discrepancy not being addressed...among other things...
Does this help?

Perhaps I'm missing something in all of this, but the band material you are identifiying as "Fake" is actually real band material.

[NickG]

Perhaps I'm missing something in all of this, but the band material you are identifiying as "Fake" is actually real band material.

Well it was this cuff title but again I am not a specialist...Maybe real material...fake embroidery???
Like Das Reich? Same scenario? (taken from another WAF thread)! Perhaps that DR cuff title never belonged on the tunic!!

[NickG]

Back to Roekens in the Wiking Artillery scenario: Just like I speculated he would have known Vincx well, they served together in WIKING Art.Reg 5.
They even show up on some duty rosters together for OOD duty (Officer of the Day). In German FvD (Fuhrer von Dienst)
Note name spelling error in one document...
On both duty roster documents Roekens is listed in Artillery Abt. III (not IV)...probably a typo? or he went from III to IV later! (this was June 1944)

They BOTH would have worn this uniform (or a field grade uniform with this insignia combination) while pulling duty as FvD (OOD in English) in WIKING, now corrected! !
White farbe would be totally wrong.
Back to the cuff title tutorial (how it is supposed to work):

Lets say he was in Wiking as an Infantry officer...odd transfer (white farbe as shown on the tunic now, )well the regimental CT would have been appropriate...
SS-Regiment Germania, = Germania CT (white farbe)
SS-Regiment Nordland, = Nordland CT (white farbe
SS-Regiment Westland, = Westland CT (white farbe)
Aufklärungs-Abteilung 5 SS-Division "Wiking" = Wiking CT
Panzerjäger-Abteilung5 SS-Division "Wiking" = Wiking CT
Fla-MG-Abteilung 5 SS-Division "Wiking" = Wiking CT
Artillerie-Regiment 5 SS-Division "Wiking" = Wiking CT (red farbe)
Flak-Abteilung 5 SS-Division "Wiking" = Wiking CT
Pionier-Bataillon 5 SS-Division "Wiking" = Wiking CT
Nachrichten-Abteilung 5SS-Division "Wiking" = Wiking CT
Feldersatz-Bataillon 5 SS-Division "Wiking" = Wiking CT

[blackadder]

Well it was this cuff title but again I am not a specialist...Maybe real material...fake embroidery???
Like Das Reich? Same scenario? (taken from another WAF thread)! Perhaps that DR cuff title never belonged on it!

I agree it has some simularitys but is not the same nor does it comes close to being simular.

Thanks for the new paper work, where did you get those.

Anyone wants to respond to our proposal ?

[harryv]

The cuff title in question does not pass - Its a reproduction until otherwise is shown.

Thats all.

//Felix[/QUOTE]

Really !!!!!!! Is that the way to judge a item

[NickG]

The cuff title in question does not pass - Its a reproduction until otherwise is shown.

Thats all.

//Felix

I think I got my cuff title images mixed up Ignore post # 159...!! Anyway I will drop the CT topic as I am not an expert in that area, just trying to help
in that regard...
but Harry (and blackadder) please believe me (since you are a new member here and helmet guys) the hard core SS cloth collectors on WAF are the best on this planet
with 10,000+hour of combined knowledge.

Regarding the waffen farbe switch idea, I was studying Wiking artillery Reg 5 officers and have found several examples of transfers but ALL within Wiking,
that would have meant for sure a waffen farbe change.
One officer went from Artillery to Nachschub (supply blue farbe...) either he was wounded and got reassigned to a cozy job as a quartermaster or something (or just a lousy gun commander) and another who went from artillery to Panzer-jager, an affiliated branch with guns, so he would have switched to pink farbe.
So of course it did occur such "versetzungen" as it was called in German army parlance...(transfers to a different branch, but usually within the Division for lower ranking personnel, field grade officers, like Untersturmfuhrers and Obersturmfuhrers).

So nothing firm on Roekens going to Das Reich???, that was a wild assumption based strictly on the cuff title? Your sales thread made it sound like it was proven...
I honestly could not find anything...I tried! It would have been a less common move based on his field grade officers rank..
Higher ranking officers for sure, ( they jumped around to totally different divisions like transferring from LAH to HJ ) in leadership positions....changing Divisions!

Many officers (in this case Wiking artillery officers) did rotate back to the Ausbildungs und Ersatz (training and replacement) unit of the Division/Regiment to be assigned as instructors to make new members "front reif" (Front ready) ! Sharing their battle experience. That was a common move and allowed for some rest away from the front!
but from artillery to infantry in a different Division (not his stamm abteilung, not his laufbahn-career ) is a stretch + CT mismatch and possible authenticity issue ,
so with that said modifying the asking price is a reasonable move, now that more is revealed. (proven issues)

Hope my contributions were worth it, even though I went into many directions trying to solve this ! (but eventually cracking the tag puzzle = Wiking Artillery)
I guess it will become a re-restored uniform (just like my examples, criticized...) but that's OK! It's named.
Good luck!

_________________________________________

PS:
HarryV: Really !!!!!!! Is that the way to judge a item:banghead

Yes that IS the way to judge an item if it is NOT textbook, a "wannabe flatwire" (rule: fake until proven real)
or lack of other identical (non-textbook) example(s) with proven rock solid provenance...like vet bring back...
(do we have Roekens Das Reich provenance? )
Felix is absolutely right!

[blackadder]

Yes that IS the way to judge an item if it is NOT textbook, a "wannabe flatwire" (rule: fake until proven real)
or lack of other identical (non-textbook) example(s) with proven rock solid provenance...like vet bring back...
(do we have Roekens Das Reich provenance? )
Felix is absolutely right!

That is really the biggest pile of horse dung i have ever stumbled across

That would automatically mean that ALLLLLL the ONE OF ONE items are FAKE ! Because that is what you saying here. So Herman Görings stick, Adolf's summer cap, all camo items other then standard issue... these are ALLLLL FAKE !
And besides, since when is vet bring back a solid provenance.

Great, that is good to know So each and every item we buy that is unique is in fact FAKE Sjieaaaattt

Felix is absolutely wrong!

[blackadder]

as for the not das reich...
did we forget this message yet ? that is what we based it upon.

But, i think im about done defening this, the piece is AS is and all the blaming and crap does loosen my confidence in this community. its almost pathetic.