SS tunic

[John Pic]

NickG I already posted pictures on this forum many times of this occurance on Officer tunics do a search, I myself am kind of burned out about Militaria and realize many opinions are just speculation based on what people are comfortable with, I highly doubt someone was able to assemble a complete set of Belgian insignias possible but I have doubts. That Collar tab by the way, can be seen on an LAH officers tunic in Angolias book. I think some people just like to feel they are right but most of the action in this hobby happened long before you started collecting.

There is a great book by Richard Sholtze Kossens on the Junkerschule and in it some wonderful uniform photos of Officers wearing the breast eagle and explinations why.

[NickG]

NickG I already posted pictures on this forum many times of this occurance on Officer tunics do a search, I myself am kind of burned out about Militaria and realize many opinions are just speculation based on what people are comfortable with, I highly doubt someone was able to assemble a complete set of Belgian insignias possible but I have doubts. That Collar tab by the way, can be seen on an LAH officers tunic in Angolias book. I think some people just like to feel they are right but most of the action in this hobby happened long before you started collecting.

There is a great book by Richard Sholtze Kossens on the Junkerschule and in it some wonderful uniform photos of Officers wearing the breast eagle and explinations why.

Thanks for the tip! and I agree with you John wholeheartedly anything and everything is possible and we all don't have all the answers and on top of that for every rule there is an exception. I have my dad's uniform dated April 1944, officer quality kleiderkasse private purchase piece with matching riding breeches from a local tailor..it was basically paid for with an allowance. That was the norm. It survived because it never went to the Ukraine and could not be recycled....it was NOT Government property! My avatar btw is part of that uniform!
That's how most uniforms in that category survived...closet hangers...Combat uniforms (as shown in this image) ended up being boiled in flea treatment wooden vats for delousing purposes and worn out or eventually turned into rags in POW cages. That's the reality.

What you see in books in period front line pictures, well 90% did NOT survive to include recycled gpvernment contracted Heer uniforms recycled/retrofitted with SS eagles. The Roekens uniform does NOT fall in such a category, hence its survival...It is not a combat used field uniform for a lowly lieutenant to negotiate through barbed wire with! ...its an eigentümssstuck with plenty of BLING and therefor a closet survivor! Regarding exceptions, would love to see the book that you are referencing! I am sure nice uniforms got thrashed in the field too!

Here's an entire thread that I devoted to "no bling" field uniforms as used by front line SS officers!
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d+tunic&page=8

[NickG]

Harry and Blackadder; question for you: is there documentation that he transferred from Artillery to Infantry?
You wrote:
______________________

The jacket belonged to Julien Roekens, a Belgium volunteer who joined the SS in 1941 in the 1 SS PZ GREN RGT 10 westland. after Westland he also served in the 5 SS PZ DIV Winking, 1 Flak Abt 2, 6 SS ART RGT 5 / 5 SS PZ Div Wiking.he went to bad Tolz ( SS junkerschule ) the 11the lehrgang september 9 1943 till 11th march 1944 where he was placed in the SS FLAK Ausb. u. ers. rgt Munchen. this regiment became a Unit of the SS DAS reich division at the end of March 1944 and went by train to France Bordeaux and then to Toulouse. he was promoted the 21st of June 1944 to Untersturmfuhrer ( explains the collar tabs und shoulderboards, the stiching )
_______________________

Artillery soldiers learned a lot of tricky things like Trigonometry, calculating impact strikes and setting fuzes etc...This was obviously his "laufbahn" as it was called in the German military (his branch specialty basically) and a very good chance he would have stayed in Flak after the Fuhrer lehrgang....(Officer training course)...Promotion to battery commander...)
It is actually stated in the item description (after B-T lehrgang he went to a Flak ersatz und Ausbildings unit in Munchen meaning he MUST have kept his red artillery waffen farbe... So why the infantry piped shoulderboards ? A divisional cuff title actually works better for a Flak member (as opposed to a Regimental sub-unit cuff title (like Deutschland or Der Fuhrer, where the infantry assests were and better applicable for an infantry member of the division.. But the organizationally higher "parent" CT is shown being present on this uniform...Just wondering.
Its been brought up several times by a few but not explained. You show piles of papers... so is there an answer? Again anything is possible but since we're talking about establishing provenance it would help your case if it shows in the records (regardless of a Heer breast traces and iffy CT issues!)
It might strengthen your case!

and explain this page too! (in relationship to the uniform and infantry branch...white waffenfarbe shown!)
You posted it! (I read perfect German btw and don't see the connection AT ALL...) If there is one show us! It will help your case better!

[Marcel Banziger]

Had this one in hands today which was nice after having followed this discussion the last few days. What is strange is that on very accurate inspection it is very clear there has never been a Heer eagle attached. The shadow is there which is very strange and two tiny pinholes are visible so could it be that a collector pinned a Heer eagle with 2 safety pins on that spot for display purposes, and because of that shows some discolorisation? Nowhere are any traces visible of an eagle being attached there, ever. I've seen a photo here in this thread which tried to show the location of stitching marks. Well, such marks are not there in reality, even not after looking very closely from many different angles. So it's really puzzling to see that shadow (only faintly).

I am also no expert on cuffbands. But I do know glue residue and unfortunately the pics don't do the cuff justice because I couldn't find any glue residue. What is visible is little oxidation on some of the letters as well as dust-build up. But again, this can't be seen on the photos unfortunately.

Since I am interested in history with unique items popping up now and then I think it would be interesting to see opinions from experts after having it in hands for close inspection instead of only judging by photos which, in all honesty, don't do justice.

Looking forward to the continuation of this discussion and hope more experts will give an in-hands opinion to see where it could lead to.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Really?

If you won't listen to Bob or Fritz and or see the obvious, I cannot help you.

[blackadder]

Hahahaaa... these are two entirely different cufftitles

Just compare the back ground and the edge below the text, even a blind man can see this.

[NickG]

Hahahaaa... these are two entirely different cufftitles

Just compare the back ground and the edge below the text, even a blind man can see this.

Yes: so some say its a fake because of that...a wannabe flatwire reproduction
others like you: say it is simply a variant...hoping for a plausible foreign made explanation...
Lets just simply settle this matter and see what the wool underneath the title looks like, and see if it even ever had one...(fake, real or possible real), like I asked.
Just open up one small edge area...It won't lessen the value..and check for non-fading!
Speaking of fading: the breast eagle not being apparent with the naked eye, but only with tricks like inverting the colors does not change a thing...it was obviously there.
Some weird posts here...

also "crickets" on the farbe mismatch issue...??? (Dead silence)
A pile of documents and nothing? No answers? What does the IV mean on the tag? My medical explanation might have been way off the mark but is it in the docs?
Speaking of which see image!(*)
WHAT regiment (or Divisional assets) did he serve in...So he was Infantry??...(for a low ranking Inf.Untersturmfuhrer a Regimental CT is more appropriate !

If its Das Reich Flak, well the parent cuff title "D R" makes sense...the shoulderboards do not however...Wrong Laufbahn like I stated but its not explained!
(*) What is this? "B" ??? Different guy? or "H" for Herr maybe? Another clue?

Is its "H" for Herr than it is not a Belgium tailored tunic...since those tags would read "Mr" for Mijnheer or Monsieur...(Mister in English of course)
Just some more food for thought...(btw the material is not Italian wool as a defender of this mystery tunic posted...)

[blackadder]

ah, the tag is up in the magic paint program. Cool stuff ! Amazing

[NickG]

ah, the tag is up in the magic paint program. Cool stuff ! Amazing

That is not contributing to anything...just lame...Just back up your story...farbe issue change explanation??
This is not rocket science...its questioning the obvious! and since its full of Belgian made insignia including a Belgian made cuff title as you hope...
perhaps the tunic is also Belgian made? Just trying to do some detective work...Is it a "B"?
I am not attacking just helping with clues not yet addressed!
If its an H like Herr...well it is a GERMAN tag! That is an important part of the puzzle in my view! I like mysteries...just trying to help here!

[blackadder]

Do you realy... realy believe we are going to cut loose that cuff ? you must be out of your mind. Not that surprises me because you keep pulling them out of your hat.

what do you expect we wouls uncover under that cuff... yes, the same discolarisation as that heer eagle of yours that has never been attached as we said so many times.
The cuff is either good or bad and i have seen none comparison from an exact simular that shows it is fake.

and as far as the waffen farbe. what kind of people run with and around those tanks ?

[Ray76]

I am following this thread with great interest. I have got much to learn.
Why don't you post it on the Belgium forum lowlandsmilitaria.be
Maybe someone there can give disclosure about the CT for example.
There are some good experts on that forum.

[John Pic]

The reason the Eagle shadow is so faint is because it was removed before the end of the war after a very short time of useage ...if it had been removed after it was worn in the field for 2-3 years the shadow would be darker or even after 30 -40,50,60 years in storage.

[Mike C]

"...and as far as the waffen farbe. what kind of people run with and around those tanks ? "

Those wearing Deutschland (SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 3) and Der Fuhrer (SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 4) cufftitles of course...

Mike

[blackadder]

and their waffen farbe ?

[Marcel Banziger]

The eagle never had been attached there by any stitching....that was very clear to see in hands. There are two tiny pinholes (pins from a seamstress) on top of the eagle's shadow, like it has been pinned through the top of its wings for a while, yet never has there been any stitching. The discolorisation can be seen, though only very faint, yet it's there indeed. So I would expect that for whatever reason one of the previous collector owners pinned a Heer eagle with two pins to the jacket for the duration of his possession of the jacket, resulting in the discolorisation/leaving the shadow of the eagle. Farfetched idea perhaps? Yet more plausible than a Heer eagle having been stitched there since that is clearly not the case.