SS tunic

[Felix]

Thanks for your answer BA.

I would be most greatful for more info about that cuff title. If several advanced collectors think its originial there certainly must be more info / provenance / pictures etc. It would help the collecting community.

You might be correct about the label, thats not what I say. I just relate to why tunics that are issued in the vast majority of cases are without names. In the light of that obsevation comes this tunic, with possible history and a "non tailor" handwritten label. Just observations.

For me the big thing here is the cuff title - because I specialize in insignias and I have never ever seen such a version before and Im curious about its construction. So far I dont fell ok with it, but thats just me, and any more info would be most helpfull for all.

Cheers
//Felix

[harryv]

http://www.walhalla.se/topic/48069-s...ich-cufftitle/

felix

hope this will help you. thanks for your reply concerning the jacket / cuff

above the link concerning the flatwire. several people on the forum and by mail write that it is a type that is never or not often seen before, but that doesnt meen that it is fake. like stated in this topic the fake ones look very different.

[harryv]

here a reaction of a advanced ss collector i received per mail.

you have there a great looking tunic.As you said eagle and tabs are Belgian made.Cufftitle is a scarce flatwire example (I have the same on my officer tunic).

I think you will deal with it easily .

[Mike C]

I would respectfully disagree that the privately owned uniforms were taken from their owners for issue elsewhere - and especially in the timeframe given here (mid-1944). Now it is possible that surplus uniforms (e.g. of dead or wounded personnel) were voluntarily donated - as occurred with the black A-SS uniforms for use by Germanic personnel - but what are the odds?

Do we have an answer for the discrepancy in waffenfarbe? What do the records show for service post-June 1944?

Mike

[Felix]

http://www.walhalla.se/topic/48069-s...ich-cufftitle/

felix

hope this will help you. thanks for your reply concerning the jacket / cuff

above the link concerning the flatwire. several people on the forum and by mail write that it is a type that is never or not often seen before, but that doesnt meen that it is fake. like stated in this topic the fake ones look very different.

Thanks for explaining Harryv. The link is dead and not working. Maybe you can fix this? If you need to post a pic I can help you.
As I wrote I would like further evidence of this so called rare "flat wire type". (its not a flat wire at all but a bullion that mimics flat wire style).

Cheers
//Felix

[Felix]

here a reaction of a advanced ss collector i received per mail.

you have there a great looking tunic.As you said eagle and tabs are Belgian made.Cufftitle is a scarce flatwire example (I have the same on my officer tunic).

I think you will deal with it easily .

Cuff title is not a flatwire from what I can see, but as I wrote a bullion that tries to look the same as a true flatwire in construction. At least this is what I can tell fron the front of the cuff title. All other bullion embroidery is done quite differently due to construction and tension of the black base band (when lacking unterlagen - and on this cuff title I see nothing to hold the long bullion wires in place)

Further info and evidence needed IMO. I and several others most likely would be most greatful.

Cheers
//Felix

[blackadder]

Felix, would it be helpful if I provide more pictures from the cuff ? any parts in particular you would like to see ? i will have to make them as soon as i get home.

[harryv]

felix,

thanks for your input and taking the time to respond.

i just send what i received. you are correct it is a bullion with some features of the flatwire style as i wrote in the topic before.

are you a menber of walhalla ?

[harryv]

reaction one

Harry anymore images from this tunic?

Im not an SS cuff specialist regarding RZM and or flatwire, but this looks like an variant which are seen also with the horizontally white silck borders


reaction 2

Wow,what a beauty! Congrats :icon14: IMO a bullion super-rare cuff.

May you show more of your tunic?

This is a scan of a flat wire D.R. textbook cuff from my old collection.

Regards. G.


reaction 3

it's cool :first:


reaction 4


Very nice cuff indeed!


Visit my photo gallery at:

Shutterstock


reaction 5 / 6

I do not like the ct. In pics I have seen some bullion ct in a large Latin fonts. This is looks near the fw classic and this is not a good sign.
From France-Belgium is the 3th DR tunic I have seen this month, one same rank, so i am very carefull.

Rare of course cause we saw:
Bevo
Flatwire
Rzm
Strange gotic (private)bulion
Strange latin (private)bullion

There is the first time i see a bullion with clear fw fonts.
On a tunic have other 3 insignia foreign made,,private purchase no provenance. I WOULD see one periodo pics with this fw-bullion CT.
For my taste in SS field is enough to be sceptic.


reaction 7

very cool

[NickG]

My opinion is that since this was a used Heer tunic given to a jr. SS Officer to use probably due to a shortage of nicer uniforms at a certain point in the war where he was. The label was rubbed out and he wrote his rank and name in place of the other previous one. I have serious doubt that uniforms recovered in the field separated from their owners and were not able to be reunited with either a fallen or POW officer were not recycled, or even in Hospitals, in exigent supply circumstances clothing would be recycled JMO...

You are mixing up front line combat uniforms with eigentumsstuck private purchase (best dress/home use) uniforms. This is not a combat uniform and for a junior officer wherever he was, (meaning somewhere at or near the front) he would have more often worn a woolen field uniform and those got damaged, stained and were replaced all the time.
Those were government property (see image of 2 restored examples of lowly Untersturmfuhrers with fieldgrade "battle grade subdued" insignia...NO BLING! )
and remained government property and available even at hospital sites probably, meaning recyclable and transferable.
This one does NOT fall in that category!

In the majority of the cases the only officers that would wear such a quality gabardine uniform at the front were higher ranking staff officers in a cozy bunker or safe HQ location. Not in the trenches with bullion eagles as a lowly lieutenant (Untersturmfuhrer)! A private purchase uniform such as the one discussed or any purchase garment of a fallen officer (usually obtained from his footlocker) was supposed to be retrieved and returned to next of kin as these were private possessions. At least that was the rule. Officers used their Kleiderkasse allowance to buy these trikot wool uniforms and other officer related things.

A freshly promoted Untersturmfuhrer who just graduated from Bad Tolz (proud as a peacock) would never ever obtain a used (Heer) uniform and have it rebadged with expensive SS bullion insignia...He had the allowance for a new one, it was FREE, it was in the budget! It just does not add up for me the Heer uniform traces unless he was a Wallonien officer who transferred from Heer to W-SS and took his own private purchase possessions (eigentumsstuck) with him! I am sure there are exceptions and this might very well be that case, but it does create a blemish and cause doubt. A Wallonien Heer-W-SS transfer scenario on the other hand would make this a very exciting uniform but that would mean it was misidentified and incorrectly restored. This uniform was in a collection for 30 years, well in the mid 80's things were rebuilt too! 90% of surviving uniforms, especially SS are rebuilt, restored. Not claiming with certainty that this one is, but that is just the reality in general, hence its reasonable original selling price in the first place (=value of parts).
I was hoping so much for a Wallonien transfer scenario (the other Roekens officer)!!! Would fit the bill perfectly and close any issues of doubt for me! Now we just don't know!
but discussing the cuff title is a good idea...another stumbling block, some like it, others don't... (besides the Heer use traces of a breast eagle as disclosed...but not clear/obvious)
Getting it straight from the vet's closet or a period picture of Roekens wearing this exact same uniform of course would settle this matter in a heart beat, that's the only rock solid provenance for it to exist "as is", now it is ALL just speculation! btw I still like it and own many uniforms that could have been restored (or not) Let's face it ...that's the reality after 70 years!

[Felix]

felix,

thanks for your input and taking the time to respond.

i just send what i received. you are correct it is a bullion with some features of the flatwire style as i wrote in the topic before.

are you a menber of walhalla ?

Im not a member of Walhalla. Could you please post that photo here or send to your friend blackadder and he can post? If not you can send me a pm and I give you my e-mail and I will post for you.

Cheers
//Felix

[NickG]

Im not a member of Walhalla. Could you please post that photo here or send to your friend blackadder and he can post? If not you can send me a pm and I give you my e-mail and I will post for you.

Cheers
//Felix

I can do it!

[NickG]

The Walhalla forum contribution on this topic (member gosho gets the credit!)
Compare, (it pretends to be that)
Are they even the same? Not the embroidery, not the black backing...The loose one is amazing! with the proper rectangular shaped black backing weave! (not square)
That is a text book flat wire style embroidery! Too bad we can't see the back of the Belgian tunic example (and see what the wool looks like -unfaded underneath?)

[jimt]

tunic

doesn't Reddick sell this pattern cufftitle , seem to remember something like this before ? a

[blackadder]

eagle