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    #31
    German Div "gliederung" Divisionsstab (Wehrmacht Heer, Waffen SS used same system but no chaplains of course!)

    Führungsabteilung
    Ia 1. Generalstabsoffizier (Oberstleutnant i.G, Vorschläge an Divisionskommandeur zur Führung)
    O1 1. Ordonnanzoffizier (Major, Gehilfe des Ia)
    Ic 3. Generalstabsoffizier (Hauptmann i.G, Feindlageoffizier)
    O3 3. Ordonnanzoffizier (Oberleutnant, Gehilfe des Ic)
    Divisionsartillerieführer (Kommandeur des Artillerieregiments)
    Divisionspionierführer (Kommandeur des Pionierbataillons)
    Divisionsnachrichtenführer (Kommandeur der Nachrichtenabteilung)

    Adjutantur[Bearbeiten]
    IIa Divisionsadjutant (Major, Personalangelegenheiten der Offiziere)
    IIb Vertreter Divisionsadjutant (Hauptmann, Personalangelegenheiten der Unteroffiziere und Mannschaften)
    III Divisionskriegsgericht (Kriegsgerichtsrat)

    Quartiermeisterabteilung[Bearbeiten]
    Ib 2. Generalstabsoffizier (Major, Leiter der Quartiermeisterabteilung)
    O2 2. Ordonanzoffizier (Gehilfe des Ib)
    Ib/WuG (Hauptmann, Ergänzung, Nachschub und Pflege von Waffen, Munition und Gerät aller Art)
    Ib/Kfz (Hauptmann, Ersatz, Nachschub und Instandsetzung von Kfz.)
    IVa Divisionsintendant (Intendanturrat, Versorgung mit Verpflegung, Futter, Bekleidung und Ausrüstung)
    IVb Divisionsarzt (Oberfeldarzt, Vorgesetzter aller Sanitätsdienste der Division)
    IVc Divisionsveterinär (Oberstabsveterinär, Vorgesetzter aller Veterinärdienste der Division)
    IVd Katholischer und evangelischer Pfarrer
    IVz Stabszahlmeister mit Rechnungsstelle (Auszahlung des Wehrsoldes u. a.)
    __________________
    IV = supply (to include medical, veterinary, pay)
    This might explain his Divisional cufftitle, but the waffenfarbe?

    What do the documents show? Position? Flak? Infantry? Staff position? Supply IV ? This might help confirming his ID (position)
    Again I am not doubting the authenticity of the uniform and insignia. It is spectacular. Just his function and Heer relationship (recycled uniform???)
    Call it "rebuilding-reconstructing the pedigree" ! Strengthening the case for a positive ID! Hope this helps!
    Attached Files
    Last edited by NickG; 07-21-2015, 05:10 PM.

    Comment

      #32
      Félix i reported a notice of a very adbanced collector. I respect him position i do not know which book but i have your same opinion.

      Comment

        #33
        It would be extremely unlikely for a junior combat arms officer to fill this position (note that in the gliederung provided it is filled by an Intendanturrat). White waffenfarbe was used by enlisted personnel assigned to divisional staffs however officers - after 1942 - wore their original waffenfarbe. (See: Angolia, pg. 233).

        Mike

        Comment

          #34
          True ! Intendanturrat (IV) on divisional level (supply) is at least a Captain or Hauptsturmführer...(supply farbe blue perhaps?)
          Just wondering what the IV could otherwise stand for on the tag...What did the documents reveal Blackadder? (we are just "grasping" here...) A positive waffenfarbe ID? his "Fuhrer"position? Divisional or regimental level posting? ex-Heer after all? Flak-Artillery career but white waffenfarbe switch, not impossible at all!
          I love trying to solve such mysteries but with the proper career records unearthed, there should not be much of a mystery left.... Show us!
          Last edited by NickG; 07-21-2015, 06:40 PM.

          Comment

            #35
            Originally posted by viva_giulio View Post
            Félix i reported a notice of a very adbanced collector. I respect him position i do not know which book but i have your same opinion.
            Ok, thanks Mauro!

            I would like further info if possible.

            Cheers
            //Felix

            Comment

              #36
              Nice embroidery of the private made category, fits Belgian theory. I like the jacket aswell although not an expert. Insignia same wear and cuff well bonded in the tunic fabric over the years so thats good. If jacket was supplied through logistic channels and was reissued out of army private issue stocks to this WSS officer it would explain the army eagle trace -which I cant see- and possibly the logistic ambt IV mark on the label if that is what it means.... Or unit section nr maybe?
              Anyway uniform looks great and appears to have some interesting foreign volunteer history! Too bad the Flemish lion badge was never attached to it!
              Kapitein

              Comment

                #37
                Who offered or sold this tunic original and for what price, and is the actual seller the orig purchaser?

                Comment

                  #38
                  Originally posted by kapitein View Post
                  If jacket was supplied through logistic channels and was reissued out of army private issue stocks to this WSS officer it would explain the army eagle trace -which I cant see Kapitein
                  "Reissued (ex-Heer) out of private issue stocks to W-SS" is not a plausible scenario...
                  The ONLY time "eigentumstucks" were recycled was when retired and reserve officers donated their uniforms for Volkssturm use, clothing drives organized by the local NSDAP.
                  (after being stripped of rank) That DID happen...and that is the ONLY plausible scenario for private purchase garments to get a new life (in a different branch)!
                  I remain puzzled w/Heer connection, but it also remains a spectacular find with a possible foreign volunteer connection!!
                  Last edited by NickG; 07-21-2015, 06:41 PM.

                  Comment

                    #39
                    Originally posted by harryv View Post
                    the jacket is 100% Original imho as it was my jacket. the facts are :

                    eagle Belgium made. advanced collectors in europe and forum menbers have the same opinion

                    collar tabs Belgium made advanced collectors in europe and forum menbers have the same opinion

                    cufftitle a rare bulion private made with flattwire style. the imitation dont even come close and also this one shows the correct where if expected with a jacket that is worn. see coloration and wear.
                    advanced collectors in europe and forum menbers have the same opinion

                    the jacket was first used by the wehrmacht and later on the war was transfered to ss this was common and there are many photos showing this.
                    a friend of mine who works with the dutch, german and Belgium goverment rechared it and was very clear. the jacket shows the correct where etc. he was promoted the untersturmfuhrer the 21st of june 44.

                    how long did the ss used waffenfarbe ?

                    like several people here on the forum wrote. jacket looks good. jacket has the correct wear they are right. if you have it in hands you know it 100 procent certain.
                    Welcome on the forum with your first post harryv. You probably are the guy that bought this tunic together with Blackadder (pooling your money)
                    from the dealer who found it (Mark), now selling it. I agree, spectacular insignia on an original tunic. Good find!
                    The history is interesting! Since you were involved with researching the officer's career with another friend please do show us the docs! as documented tunics are so rare!
                    It might also help selling it faster
                    (Heer to SS transfer "eigentumsstück" kleidung remains a mystery to me... but hell,what do I know...I wasn't there...)
                    Last edited by NickG; 07-21-2015, 06:08 PM.

                    Comment

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Robert H View Post
                      Who offered or sold this tunic original and for what price, and is the actual seller the orig purchaser?
                      I received requests of opinione twice innlast two months for a different lower price (first time).

                      Comment

                        #41
                        J.Roekens (Winking/Das Reich) or P Roekens (Wallonie-Heer/SS)?

                        I love the tunic, that's not even an issue...its the pedigree and Heer eagle issue...
                        So I did some digging myself because
                        1) Heer breast eagle issue on eigentumsstuck...Big question mark! Did not happen for a W-SS career officer (no Heer transfer)!!!
                        2) Waffen farbe issue red artillery back ground , white infantry farbe issue...does not tie in at all for me...
                        3) Cuff title was doubted as being authentic...Issues...
                        4) junior field grade infantry officer with Divisional cuff title...(Das Reich) More appropriate is "Der Fuhrer" or "Deutschland" regimental CT's for a jr. inf. officer
                        5) the IV Gliederung on the tag! as I stated already...
                        6) the shoulderboards look like they were not on it originally...not tight!
                        7) You have not shared you research...so I did my own!

                        On the positive side:
                        Belgian made rank insignia and a Belgian name. That ties together nicely!
                        Does the name make him automatically a Flemish officer? Like I said earlier, no, could be Wallonie still!

                        This uniform might have been restored incorrectly...Wrongly identified and the "research" was done because of a name mis-identification and restored with an incorrect cuff title..
                        (with possible issues even...) I would highly recommend to take a peek UNDER the cuff title to see what the wool looks like!

                        It might be a much much rarer original legion Wallonie/Sturm Brigade Wallonie uniform and this is why:
                        There were 2 Belgian officers in the Waffen SS with that name "Roekens" that I was able to find....
                        J.Roekens with an artillery back ground and P.Roekens with a medical back ground...Both don't match the Infantry shoulder boards...+ Heer adler scar...

                        P.Roekens is not listed in Wallonie under Heer in one reference ...Only in the Sturm Brigade Wallonie (SS ) but he could have gone to a Heer medical training facility with the plans to be placed in Wallonie under Heer command which explains the Heer breast eagle issue but upon completion of his training the unit transferred to W-SS command and voila you have an explanation for the branch change (=Heer eagle ghost explanation). He was an Unterartz (basically a warrant officer, transitional rank) who after completing his doctor's training would become a full Untersturmfuhrer which probably happened. Remember the Gliederung IV. Also applicable for medical personnel!

                        Quartiermeisterabteilung
                        Ib 2. Generalstabsoffizier (Major, Leiter der Quartiermeisterabteilung)
                        O2 2. Ordonanzoffizier (Gehilfe des Ib)
                        Ib/WuG (Hauptmann, Ergänzung, Nachschub und Pflege von Waffen, Munition und Gerät aller Art)
                        Ib/Kfz (Hauptmann, Ersatz, Nachschub und Instandsetzung von Kfz.)
                        IVa Divisionsintendant (Intendanturrat, Versorgung mit Verpflegung, Futter, Bekleidung und Ausrüstung)
                        IVb Divisionsarzt (Oberfeldarzt, Vorgesetzter aller Sanitätsdienste der Division)
                        IVc Divisionsveterinär (Oberstabsveterinär, Vorgesetzter aller Veterinärdienste der Division)
                        IVd Katholischer und evangelischer Pfarrer
                        IVz Stabszahlmeister mit Rechnungsstelle (Auszahlung des Wehrsoldes u. a.)
                        __________________
                        IV = supply (to include medical, veterinary, pay)

                        In another source he is listed as P.Roekens in Wallonie under Heer command...transferring to W-SS with Degrelle, Fits the bill perfectly!
                        Service de santé : Hstuf. Schultz (hongrois), Lieutenant Stahl (médecin), Candidat médecin P. Roekens, Lieutenant R. Lejeune (dentiste) et 1er Adjudant C. Petre (pharmacien)
                        This explains the Heer breast eagle ghost perfectly! A major point of concern for me for a "Das Reich" officer with no Heer service connections...Impossible! NEIN!
                        WALLONIE YES!!! Don't get too hung up on that Das Reich Cuff title for positive ID!

                        Maybe I am way off the mark with P.Roekens but that name does work for a Heer transfer to Waffen SS which this uniform represents! (Wallonie and much rarer!!!)
                        Something to consider. If I am totally wrong, fine, but show your research! officers did not use second hand uniforms (Heer-SS issue with no career ties to both branches!)

                        Some source references:
                        http://home.arcor.de/sturmbrigade/Fu...gspersonal.htm

                        http://ostfront.forumpro.fr/t1081-28...sion-wallonien

                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by NickG; 07-22-2015, 01:28 AM.

                        Comment

                          #42
                          Maybe I am totally wrong...
                          but a Walloon Medical officer would have the Heer history that is lacking on this uniform if presented (currently) as a "Das Reich" Inf junior officer (with Div CT).
                          I would love to see the docs (as shown in this image) to prove otherwise!
                          It is a theory but a much more logical one! (to me at least!). The dots just connect better I feel!

                          PS: not sure why you are not showing your research on this matter...(not even in the sales thread? it would be beneficial and could counter my thoughts!)

                          Btw In the Wehrmacht/Heer and SS junior doctors would be called "Unterartz" (like P.Roekens) (translated = under doctor or Junior Doctor).
                          Technically they are not full fledged doctors yet...not having graduated from medical school yet but al least 3 years medical school under their belt if I'm not mistaken.
                          They are kind of like the Offiziersanwärter in other non medical branches (=officer candidates) but in the medical (Sanitater) service I guess you could consider them Doctor candidates...who eventually would ALL become Lieutenants or SS-Untersturmfurers (as per the tag rank)..transitional rank thing...
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by NickG; 07-22-2015, 01:30 AM.

                          Comment

                            #43
                            I am puzzled by the script used to write the name, how messily it was written in the first place, and the manner in which the writting is worn. Any other thoughts or opinions on this?

                            It is also puzzling for me to imagine that the person who first sold this very rare and expensive item did not take the time of checking for a label inside.

                            Comment

                              #44
                              here is what i will give you at this moment. ( at work using phone ) I will respond to this matter later today.
                              As for a J or P on the name tag. well... i have looked at it in every possible angle but indont see any P or something other then a J.

                              I would also like to comment on the price and what we bought it for. Since when does it matter what a seller paid for a item in the first place. We where lucky to mention to tag and being able to find the info behind it. Would it also be questioned if we asked half of what we paid ? Do i need to sell a helmet that i bought in the 90s for 100 dollars for that same amount today ?
                              I quess we are all long enough herr to figure out the answer to that question and besides that, i dont even believe our asking price is a strange number concidering todays market and the rarity of the item in hand.
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by blackadder; 07-22-2015, 04:45 AM.

                              Comment

                                #45
                                I also reacted on this. Usually hand written tailor labels are executed in beautiful hand writing.

                                //Felix

                                Comment

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