SS Adjutant Aiguillette

[C.Reinhardt]

I cannot comment on the aiguillette as I do not collect them nor have any interest in collecting them, but, I would really consider Robert's opinion on these. He has owned and handled some truly remarkable and exemplary clothing articles over the years.

Curious the previous owner knew this aiguillette would not be liked, however?? Did he state why or what characteristics would not be liked and or discussed?

[Gary Symonds]

I cannot comment on the aiguillette as I do not collect them nor have any interest in collecting them, but, I would really consider Robert's opinion on these. He has owned and handled some truly remarkable and exemplary clothing articles over the years.

Curious the previous owner knew this aiguillette would not be liked, however?? Did he state why or what characteristics would not be liked and or discussed?

Because he is used to Robert H's kneejerk responses, and had no illusions what to expect. The vender had no doubts in his mind that the aiguillette was an original.

I would "really consider" Robert's opinion, if he supported it with some evidence. Sadly, I am treated with mere conclusions of fact.

Here is his detailed and cogent answer in post 7. "One of the many, many fakes."

Well, that certainly is an answer you can take to the bank.

That settles it.

[Jeff V]

Hi Gary, here is one I found that had been sold by Craig Gottlieb previously. It is silver plated with no casting seems I can see. Maybe the members can help you out whether this is what an original looks like. I don't have any personal knowledge of these.
Jeff

[Gary Symonds]

Hi Gary, here is one I found that had been sold by Craig Gottlieb previously. It is silver plated with no casting seems I can see. Maybe the members can help you out whether this is what an original looks like. I don't have any personal knowledge of these.
Jeff

Jeff, thank you for the post.

Apparently, this is the same picture that was posted on the link I cited at the beginning of my thread.

It is still clearly helpful, since it proves that the SS were using runic needles attached to Heer aiguilllettes, even before the black flected adjutant model of 1938.

This Heer example was posted by the late John Pepera and was attached to a very expensive tux, ultimately sold by Herman Historica, for Pepera's estate.

Thanks for the help.

[wilhelm Saris]

This Heer example was posted by the late John Pepera and was attached to a very expensive tux, ultimately sold by Herman Historica, for Pepera's estate.

With the tux the regular army double braid was in use with regular army tips (according the regulation to the wearing of the Gesellschaftsanzug). No regulation, as far as I know, will mention the runed tips. If someone has orders otherwise, then please show. I am always willing to learn! But state it and do not say "I have heard". The shown braid does not prove a thing!
Show actual photos where the double braid aiguillette actually is being worn by the SS (Allgemeine, SS-TV , SS-VT or Waffen-SS). I have not found any when I researched for my aiguillette-book.

[Sharkey1807]

Gentlemen,
I reply to this thread not as an expert in german items.
But i do have quiet a bit experience in metal forging, casting and metal deformation.

What i do miss many times in such threads is the lack of immagination what technics were used and usual in those years.

When i just look at the piece i begin to think what are the most effectiv way to produce this piece.
For the tip:
It is not a very complex piece which i asume was not needed in big quantities.
It could have been casted, like obvisiously the piece from Mr.Gary is.
This can be clearly seen, not about the casting lines but about the surface. Sand-Casting for such a simple piece doesn't make sense cause it consums a lot of time to make the mold and clean afterwards the piece. And if casted, a worksmen would most likely not make the casting line on the ss runes.
Such a piece is much faster and easier to produce on a lathe-machine.
It can be easily identified that the piece shown by Mr.Jeff was produced on a lathe-machine.
Afterwards simply the stamped runes get placed on it and soldered.

The end piece:
This is a more complex piece with a lot of detail and different anglrs in the ornament. This could not be produced with a machine which were available back in the time.
Even stsmping would be very difficult.
The most effectiv and fast way would have been to sandcast such a piece. That why this piece has castlines.

I do not know which pieces are original or not.
But the germans were back in time ahead of all in technical stuff and produced very effectiv.

Greetings
Robert

[John Pic]

I would say by your judgment reading the threads you post with all kinds of "rare" high end items that ultimately are fake you have a hard time accepting critique. This is not a tribunal its a forum of opinions no one has to prove anything fake but if you say something is original you should have back up proof. I've never handled an SS adjutants aiguillette but I've handled numerous Heer Adjutant aiguillettes with needles and I would not touch yours because of the rarity combined with the casting lines. Proof would be in Vet liberation, or period photos, or even comparing them with a known original set. You've done none of this and now you talk **** about an experienced collector who has handled numerous items of the SS. Not only that but I knew John Pepera and he had an outstanding collection, but he also relied on other opinion from friends with experience that is the jist of collecting. People want to accept these Johannes Floch made items i.e. the Sieder Eagles as original wartime pieces, its wishful thinking. Why spend money on something you need a majority consensus on for it to be accepted as legitimate? To me it is a waste of time and money.

[Gary Symonds]

Sharkey, thank you for your informative posting. It certainly helps to have an expert in metal forming provide an answer as to how metal objects are made.

You confirmed what a fellow member said, that the bells are a casting.

Could you please refer to the posting number for "Mr. Jeff's" lath produced needle?

I'm not sure where it is.

Thank you.

[John Pic]

" I've handled numerous Heer Adjutant aiguillettes with needles "


In answer to your PM attempt to call me a liar .....

[Gary Symonds]

" I've handled numerous Heer Adjutant aiguillettes with needles "


In answer to your PM attempt to call me a liar .....

No John, no intent to call you a liar.

Your PM to me cleared up the fact that you mis-spoke in 12/06 about owning four adjutant aiguillettes.

As I said in my reply to your PM, it would help if you explained this to the membership.

[John Pic]

Please post a link to the thread where I said that I owned 4 SS Aiguillettes...lets see it. I did not misspeak you misread .

[Gary Symonds]

Please post a link to the thread where I said that I owned 4 SS Aiguillettes...lets see it. I did not misspeak you misread .

On 12/5/06, in post 14 you said:

"I should clarify myself,while the aigulettes themselves appear to be original period parade aigulettes. I do not like the addition of the crude SS runes.Adjutants generally wore single strand cords so these IMO were for parade. Unless other evidence arises from period documents the Waffen SS wore standard Heer Aigulettes.The Allgemeine wore the black flecked cords with the runes on the needle tip.
I received a PM from someone wanting to know how many vintage aigulettes Ive seen and owned,Ive owned 4 sets of the adjutant type. Here is a recent picture depicting a set of heer adjutants on my tunic,which I did for fun to dress it up".

"It could be possible some enterprising SS officer chose to have runes added."

John, if I misread it, my apology.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...illette&page=3

[John Pic]

"Ive seen and owned ,Ive owned 4 sets of the adjutant type."

I don't see the letters SS in that does anyone else??? I am really sick of fools PMing me or insulting people, accusing people of lying when it just isn't true and you just posted evidence against yourself.


Here is one of the sets I spoke of...

[John Pic]

"Here is a recent picture depicting a set of heer adjutants on my tunic, which I did for fun to dress it up"


Do you see the word HEER in this quote you used against me I do . Here is another one of my sets on the tunic mentioned in that thread you quote. I try to give advice and be nice but really you should pay a consultant.

[Sharkey1807]

Sharkey, thank you for your informative posting. It certainly helps to have an expert in metal forming provide an answer as to how metal objects are made.

You confirmed what a fellow member said, that the bells are a casting.

Could you please refer to the posting number for "Mr. Jeff's" lath produced needle?

I'm not sure where it is.

Thank you.

in post #33 the markings on the pin can be clearly identfied as lathe-markings.
For those who don't know what means lathe here's a picture of a lathe-machine:


The markings are made with a so called "Raendeleisen", sorry only know the german technical term.
It's a tool which you assemble on the layhe-toolsupport and simply by pressing it on the metal you achieve those markings.
With different wheel-inserts can be made different shapes of markings.
Here a picture of yhe tool:
http://live.sellsite.de/public/PROVI...970886b91d.jpg
Here a picture of different wheels:
http://drechslershop.de/media/images/raendel_5.jpg

Hope wasn't too technically.

Greetings
Robert