SS Adjutant Aiguillette

[Gary Symonds]

John, you certainly can give out advice, but "nice" you are not.

I made my apology as to misreading your 12/06 post. Considering the context of the thread, it was all to easy to assume that the "adjutant" you were referring to was in the SS.

I've heard of worse.

But for you to take it as some kind of personal wound or attack, and to call me a "jerk" only reflects poorly on you Mr. Pic.

[John Pic]

I gave you fair warning in your PM not to push the issue Sir but you did and then caught yourself being wrong and edited your post. So no I am not going to be nice to you after a miserable attempt to stain my character by calling me a liar and throwing stones at Robert one of the most knowledgeable SS collectors out there.

[blitzkrieg gsd]

Sorry to jump in here where I don't belong but this is getting out of control guys. If you don't believe what other members on here have to say about your item then be done with it. Don't put yourself in a pissing match thinking you can change there minds. You will not be able to change there minds. All you are doing is making enemies out of the people your asking for help. I don't know any of you personally but I do know your works on the forum. Robert has been a source of plenty of info on the SS over the years. So his opinion is respected here on the forum and he has always been quick to help. If you choose not to believe what he and the others have to say fine. But please stop trying to change there minds it's not going to work. I'm sorry for this but it is what it is and I hope that you take this as me trying to give you good advice. And I also hope it turns out that all your items are the real deal. If I can help you in any way feel free top pm me and I'll do what I can to help you.

[Sharkey1807]

I don't know what kind of personal issues you guys have.

As sayd, i am no expert in german items.
Even then i dare to make my opinion about this specific pin.
Through a technical approach i would tend to say it is not done in the periodic timeframe.
Why ?
Explanation:
1. The pins shown post #2 picture 2 have the seamline in exactly the same position.
This is impossible to achieve in sand-casting.
So then the piece must be casted in a metal-mould.
But again this is impossible because the piece would simply lock in the mould while the seam-line is placed in the worst possible place.
2. For such a piece it would not make sense to produce it in sand-casting while it's not the proper technic.
3. Any experienced caster would never had choosen the seamline over the runes. Much more difficult to clean the seam after casting.
4. With all the above i come to the conclusion wether lathe-maching, sand-casting nor casting in a metal-mould was used.
The last method to achieve this identic pieces is casting in a hightemperature silicon-mould which results in the fact that every casted piece has the seam in the identical place. And with a silicon-mould the piece could be unlocked from the mould.
But, back in the time there didn't exist hightemperature silicon for casting.

I think such pieces would have been done in bronze, but i tend to believe the pieces from post #2 could be most likely out of brass.
Brass has a lower melting temperature.

To really know if period or not would certainly show a metalurgic investigation.
This means polishing the surface of the piece. Then working with acid on the surface to pronounce the metalic structure.
Then under a microscop a expert in metalurgy could say if the metalic structure has some inpurities which was normal back in time.
Todays materials are much more clean from unwanted materials and the metalic structure is much more homogen.

Not to be fooled, even the piece from post #33 can't be 100% sure it's original.
Anybody who made 35 years ago in Switzerland or Germany a 4 year apprenticeship in mechanics could with old machines and tools produce exactly the same piece.
With some agong technics it would be pretty hard to determine if that piece was fabricated more then 70 years ago or just a few weeks ago.
Again only metalurgic investigation could reveal the truth.
But when i look on the piece in post #33 i tend to believe it is original cause it is made in the expected way such a piece should be done.

I'm no expert, but i tend to make my conclusions about figures and facts and not others peoples reputation.

[Robert H]

not right, you have to understand metal working and casting processes.
Sand casting is even not worth to mention.
The seam line is caused from the pressure of line between each part of the mold. It is easy so remove the seamline.
To investigate metal you need more examples to investigate the metal, further no one even knows if the metal back those days even has changed, reference look at medals. It also not brass at all what is clear visible.

I don't know what kind of personal issues you guys have.

As sayd, i am no expert in german items.
Even then i dare to make my opinion about this specific pin.
Through a technical approach i would tend to say it is not done in the periodic timeframe.
Why ?
Explanation:
1. The pins shown post #2 picture 2 have the seamline in exactly the same position.
This is impossible to achieve in sand-casting.
So then the piece must be casted in a metal-mould.
But again this is impossible because the piece would simply lock in the mould while the seam-line is placed in the worst possible place.
2. For such a piece it would not make sense to produce it in sand-casting while it's not the proper technic.
3. Any experienced caster would never had choosen the seamline over the runes. Much more difficult to clean the seam after casting.
4. With all the above i come to the conclusion wether lathe-maching, sand-casting nor casting in a metal-mould was used.
The last method to achieve this identic pieces is casting in a hightemperature silicon-mould which results in the fact that every casted piece has the seam in the identical place. And with a silicon-mould the piece could be unlocked from the mould.
But, back in the time there didn't exist hightemperature silicon for casting.

I think such pieces would have been done in bronze, but i tend to believe the pieces from post #2 could be most likely out of brass.
Brass has a lower melting temperature.

To really know if period or not would certainly show a metalurgic investigation.
This means polishing the surface of the piece. Then working with acid on the surface to pronounce the metalic structure.
Then under a microscop a expert in metalurgy could say if the metalic structure has some inpurities which was normal back in time.
Todays materials are much more clean from unwanted materials and the metalic structure is much more homogen.

Not to be fooled, even the piece from post #33 can't be 100% sure it's original.
Anybody who made 35 years ago in Switzerland or Germany a 4 year apprenticeship in mechanics could with old machines and tools produce exactly the same piece.
With some agong technics it would be pretty hard to determine if that piece was fabricated more then 70 years ago or just a few weeks ago.
Again only metalurgic investigation could reveal the truth.
But when i look on the piece in post #33 i tend to believe it is original cause it is made in the expected way such a piece should be done.

I'm no expert, but i tend to make my conclusions about figures and facts and not others peoples reputation.

[Sharkey1807]

not right, you have to understand metal working and casting processes.
Sand casting is even not worth to mention.
The seam line is caused from the pressure of line between each part of the mold. It is easy so remove the seamline.
To investigate metal you need more examples to investigate the metal, further no one even knows if the metal back those days even has changed, reference look at medals. It also not brass at all what is clear visible.

You are probably right about brass and bronze.
But i know how casting works and why seamlines ocure.
And know you are not right that seamlines can easily be removed.
Especially not in this specific item were the seamlines flow over yhe runes with a lot of edges.
I cleaned a thousands of leadminiatures and do know quite well how much headache make seamlines.
Aside my apprenticeship and own casting experience with different materials.
As a matter of fact during the process how metal was collected from rubble then there were naturally more inpurities. This technic is still badically the same but the separation of unwanted elements in the metall is nowadays much better. So by 1000% it could be seen a big difference in the metalic-structure between bronze from today and those 70 years back.

I don't have to proove anything here, i just took another apptoach looking at pieces then experts in the field.
I mentioned some technical issues, everybody is free to make his own conclusion noy only about a well known reputation but also about a technical viewpoint.
Again, figures and facts.
Everything else is guessing and believing.

[Robert H]

Then we both know. I don't have to explain my work and degrees. It still easy to remove.

The ones who love the Aguilette can love it with their excuses. What a laughter this thread is.

[Sharkey1807]

It still easy to remove.

If you are talking about a tumbler with ceramic pieces or other materials then yes.
But was this technic existing back in the time ? This now i really don't know.

[Robert H]

... handwork, use a diamond handfiles and a diamond paste. We dot talk about mass production.

[Jeff V]

I have cleaned up the thread. Please keep any personal insults out of the discussion.

[Gary Symonds]

Sharkey, your expert imput on metal fabrication is a true help. We are all fortunate to have a WAF member with your skills and knowledge. Thank you!

I have a question that maybe you can professionally answer.

The runes on my example are added on. If these runes are indeed separate from the body of the needle, how and why would the seam line on the runes, match exactly the seam line in the needle, going from top to bottom, straight through the left rune?

Based on that evidence, it would appear that the runes would have to have been made with the original casting.

However, looking at the sides of both runes under maginifcation, I can clearly see a solder line between the body of the needle, and the runes themselves. In addition, on one of the runes, I can see a tiny bit of light between the end of one of the runes and the body of the needle. Meaning it is a separate piece.

Can you please help me to understand what is going on?

[Sharkey1807]

Sharkey, your expert imput on metal fabrication is a true help. We are all fortunate to have a WAF member with your skills and knowledge. Thank you!

I have a question that maybe you can professionally answer.

The runes on my example are added on. if these runes are indeed separate from the body of the needle, how and why would the seam line of the runes, match exactly the seam line in the needle, going from top to bottom, straight through the left rune?

Based on that evidence, it would appear that the runes would have to have been made with the original casting.

However, looking at the sides of both runes under maginifcation, I can clearly see a solder line between the body of the needle, and the runes themselves. In addition, on one of the runes, I can see a tiny bit of light between the end of one of the runes and the body of the needle. Meaning it is a separate piece.

Can you please help me to understand what is going on?

I don't believe your runes are soldered on.
Why ?
Explanation:
1. The process of producing the runes is diestrucking which results without any seams on the visible surface.
2. Lets say the runes were casted ( what seriously doesn't make sense), it would be quite difficult to align them so exactly to the seam of the pin.
3. If your piece was made in a siliconmould which was created from a piece were the runes got soldered on it would flow in any corner and even in open spaces between the pin and runes.
This way the casted piece could have possibly also open spaces between the pin and runes.

To know for sure if your runes are soldered or not it would need a close examination under a microscop to see if the soldering-material is something else then the pin-material.
A jeweler should be abble to determine for sure if soldered or not.

Just looking on it i would make a bed they are casted together as one single piece.

[Sharkey1807]

Let's assume now 2 scenarios.

1. Scenario
A person wants to add value to a piece.
He would take Wehrmacht-Aguilettes.
Take a piece of bronze-sheetmetal and cut and then file out the runes.
Last step soldering the runes to the Wehrmacht-pins.

2. Scenario
A person wants to add value to multiple pieces.
He makes a mould and cast the pieces.
A good caster would choose the seamline left and right of the runes.
This way the seamlines would be much easier to clean.

[Gary Symonds]

I don't believe your runes are soldered on.
Why ?
Explanation:
1. The process of producing the runes is diestrucking which results without any seams on the visible surface.
2. Lets say the runes were casted ( what seriously doesn't make sense), it would be quite difficult to align them so exactly to the seam of the pin.
3. If your piece was made in a siliconmould which was created from a piece were the runes got soldered on it would flow in any corner and even in open spaces between the pin and runes.
This way the casted piece could have possibly also open spaces between the pin and runes.

To know for sure if your runes are soldered or not it would need a close examination under a microscop to see if the soldering-material is something else then the pin-material.
A jeweler should be abble to determine for sure if soldered or not.

Just looking on it i would make a bed they are casted together as one single piece.

My jeweler did examine them and tell me the runes were a separate piece. However, he believed the top and separate bell part was die struck, which you are of the opinion that this piece is a casting. Based on your evidence of problems creating the bell from a die, and the ease of manufacture by casting, you are certainly right and he is wrong.

On the issue of the runes being separate, I will ask him for a closer look.

However, while we are waiting, could you explain point 3 about silicon molds? It sounds like you are saying that the runes would be welded on in the silicon mold process? But if this silicon mold is a casting process why would the runes need to be added on? The runes would be an integral part of the silicon mold, and there would no need to add the runes as a separate piece. Am I correct? I know so little about these things. I am in the dark!

Confused, please help.

[Robert H]

That's already the best thread of 2015. You two should ride a book "from fake to good". It's already close to a Roman anyhow. But I doubt any will publish this wired book.