Need to discuss this so called "NS/SS" wood Estand item

[CWP]

The notion that E-Stand items need to be proven to be original is absurd. In the case of most items bought and sold on the E-Stand, proof of originality is impossible. The best we can hope for in the case of most items (uniforms for example, or awards) is a consensus that the items are original- that they conform in all respects to known original examples with provenance. With unique and one of a kind items, there will be no other examples to compare to. That will always be the case with handmade artwork and decorative items. I have bought items on the E-Stand including plaques, an oil painting, and similar objects that could never have been proven to be pre-1945. Any collector knows that there are countless objects that display "symbols of the period" that were made after 1945, such objects are still being made today. Should we only allow unique items on the E-Stand if they show clear dates or swastikas, is that the suggestion here? If this candleholder had an SS stamp on the bottom would it become real? Does the fact that some items were manufactured in various forms between 1813-2013 mean that originals from the 1933-1945 period cannot exist? They candlestick in question is advertised as "NS/SS Period." Can anyone prove that this candlestick is not as described, i.e. not from the NS period? Thorsten has stated that the item represents a specific rune that period documentation proves had a role in SS weddings.

Many people have accused this seller of manufacturing these items, with no proof. He was "demonstrated" (by some) to have carved a plate and later was able to show that he had bought it from a specific auction house before offering it for sale, leaving no doubt that he was not the artist. But based on the criteria being suggested- that unique handmade decorative items must display symbols of the period to be real- it seems that if the seller really is as skilled with a chisel as some would like to believe, that he will have no problem continuing to market his wares.

I took a quick look at the "Miscellaneous Third Reich Items" table. I see an abundance of items that could never be empirically proven to be pre-1945, from carved wood to ashtrays, to framed art, etc. Couldn't that frame date from 1955, how can anyone prove it couldn't? I also see at least one item that I feel reasonably confident is fake, Thorsten is not the seller. What is the purpose of these accusations against this one seller, why is he being held, it seems, to an unreasonable standard? Is it that SS collectors do not want to concede that there are SS related pieces that remain affordable and are something other than their eagerly sought bits of cloth or metal?

[Dmv]

As a side note...for everyone who has interest in this area of collecting...and cannot afford the above mentioned book "die Feier" ( also not often available)....

Get the reprint at 15 euro on Ebay
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Die-Feier-ers...item53f6182bc4

[N.C. Wyeth]

The notion that E-Stand items need to be proven to be original is absurd. In the case of most items bought and sold on the E-Stand, proof of originality is impossible. The best we can hope for in the case of most items (uniforms for example, or awards) is a consensus that the items are original- that they conform in all respects to known original examples with provenance. With unique and one of a kind items, there will be no other examples to compare to. That will always be the case with handmade artwork and decorative items. I have bought items on the E-Stand including plaques, an oil painting, and similar objects that could never have been proven to be pre-1945. Any collector knows that there are countless objects that display "symbols of the period" that were made after 1945, such objects are still being made today. Should we only allow unique items on the E-Stand if they show clear dates or swastikas, is that the suggestion here? If this candleholder had an SS stamp on the bottom would it become real? Does the fact that some items were manufactured in various forms between 1813-2013 mean that originals from the 1933-1945 period cannot exist? They candlestick in question is advertised as "NS/SS Period." Can anyone prove that this candlestick is not as described, i.e. not from the NS period? Thorsten has stated that the item represents a specific rune that period documentation proves had a role in SS weddings.

Many people have accused this seller of manufacturing these items, with no proof. He was "demonstrated" (by some) to have carved a plate and later was able to show that he had bought it from a specific auction house before offering it for sale, leaving no doubt that he was not the artist. But based on the criteria being suggested- that unique handmade decorative items must display symbols of the period to be real- it seems that if the seller really is as skilled with a chisel as some would like to believe, that he will have no problem continuing to market his wares.

I took a quick look at the "Miscellaneous Third Reich Items" table. I see an abundance of items that could never be empirically proven to be pre-1945, from carved wood to ashtrays, to framed art, etc. Couldn't that frame date from 1955, how can anyone prove it couldn't? I also see at least one item that I feel reasonably confident is fake, Thorsten is not the seller. What is the purpose of these accusations against this one seller, why is he being held, it seems, to an unreasonable standard? Is it that SS collectors do not want to concede that there are SS related pieces that remain affordable and are something other than their eagerly sought bits of cloth or metal?

Very well spoken.

This Witch Hunt commences, unjustly - if you ask me.

[Michael Fay]

Mr. Fay,

What EXACTLY do you think is misleading in my cited description?

Since you have the book at hand:

Would You mind translating the text on page 36 within the SS-booklet "Die Feier" for us here into english language?

Just to find out and make sure that you really understood what the content and meaning of the text is all about!

Would You mind doing that for all to see?

Thank You in advance for your clearifying answer regarding this delicate matter.

Mr.Beine,.
It is settled, you can not give a defense.
As to your disingenuous query:
re-read the first post. All your questions are answered in a extremely clear manner .

[Thorsten B.]

Mr.Beine,.
It is settled, you can not give a defense.
As to your disengenous query:
re-read the first post. All your questions are answered in a extremely clear manner .

I did read your first post - be sure about that.

It is full of mistakes and illegitimate deductions to rate it courtly - obviously caused by your impossibility to really understand what has been written and stated in that SS-booklet.

Blatant misjudgement caused by dangerous half-knowledge - that is all it is.

[Michael Fay]

I did read your first post - be sure about that.

It is full of mistakes and illegitimate deductions to rate it courtly - obviously caused by your impossibility to really understand what has been written and stated in that SS-booklet.

Blatant misjudgement caused by dangerous half-knowledge - that is all it is.

So why are you unable to cite one specific phrase or sentence or paragraph in your defense as to what I already stated for all to see?

[Michael Fay]

Michael,
He does not have to answer any questions and members goading him will only get themselves into trouble.

However in that period he has not provided any counter evidence to yours so as such I am going to remove the sales thread as the claims of the sellers description are not proved.

REMEMBER:

What you all need to do is PROVE 100% with facts;

Items are fake

They are not as described

Thank you

Hello Gary,
thanks for your diligence.
I know this an onerous part of being a moderator.

[PHILBROWN]

Very well spoken.

This Witch Hunt commences, unjustly - if you ask me.

i concur

[Michael Fay]

Refresher course in moral compasses

Phil,
I have replied to your pm the jist below,


Regarding so called cultural items that can have been produce at anytime from the turn of the century to modern day then these need to be "proved they are period items and fit within the time period of the NS state if they are advertised as such on the e-stand", some are easy to tell as they are embellished with symbols of the period others are not, its the latter that need to Be proved period as you can still buy many traditional items in germany for example the tapestry that were listed,some until fairly recently were still in production.

I have a candle stick given to me by an ss vet who bought it pre war, just because he owned it and bought it does not make it a SS or a NS candle stick. So if the items are listed for sale on the estand as NS/SS then there needs to Be proof that they are .

Sorry if there are typos above as I have done this on my phone

This is an excellent Refresher Course in Moral Compasses.
It ought to be pinned.

[Sal Williams]

The notion that E-Stand items need to be proven to be original is absurd. In the case of most items bought and sold on the E-Stand, proof of originality is impossible. The best we can hope for in the case of most items (uniforms for example, or awards) is a consensus that the items are original- that they conform in all respects to known original examples with provenance. With unique and one of a kind items, there will be no other examples to compare to. That will always be the case with handmade artwork and decorative items. I have bought items on the E-Stand including plaques, an oil painting, and similar objects that could never have been proven to be pre-1945. Any collector knows that there are countless objects that display "symbols of the period" that were made after 1945, such objects are still being made today. Should we only allow unique items on the E-Stand if they show clear dates or swastikas, is that the suggestion here? If this candleholder had an SS stamp on the bottom would it become real? Does the fact that some items were manufactured in various forms between 1813-2013 mean that originals from the 1933-1945 period cannot exist? They candlestick in question is advertised as "NS/SS Period." Can anyone prove that this candlestick is not as described, i.e. not from the NS period? Thorsten has stated that the item represents a specific rune that period documentation proves had a role in SS weddings.

Many people have accused this seller of manufacturing these items, with no proof. He was "demonstrated" (by some) to have carved a plate and later was able to show that he had bought it from a specific auction house before offering it for sale, leaving no doubt that he was not the artist. But based on the criteria being suggested- that unique handmade decorative items must display symbols of the period to be real- it seems that if the seller really is as skilled with a chisel as some would like to believe, that he will have no problem continuing to market his wares.

I took a quick look at the "Miscellaneous Third Reich Items" table. I see an abundance of items that could never be empirically proven to be pre-1945, from carved wood to ashtrays, to framed art, etc. Couldn't that frame date from 1955, how can anyone prove it couldn't? I also see at least one item that I feel reasonably confident is fake, Thorsten is not the seller. What is the purpose of these accusations against this one seller, why is he being held, it seems, to an unreasonable standard? Is it that SS collectors do not want to concede that there are SS related pieces that remain affordable and are something other than their eagerly sought bits of cloth or metal?

I find this logic faulty. If I understand correctly, these items were produced over a large span of time. If so one should have to prove that a specific one was produced in the TR period, and also prove that it was used for NS/SS purposes. I am sure I could find a cigarette case manufacturer who produced before and after the war. I think it would be misleading for me to call it a wartime ns/ss cigarette case. There must be many items that fall into this scenario. When you have items with imagery from the TR period, then the only question is if it is fake. That may not be easy to do with unique items, but at least if is marked in some way there are only two choices, genuine TR or not. With these other items you add many non TR years of production. I would say an explaination of why they should be considered TR is in order. Apples and oranges if you ask me.

[Gary Wood]

REMEMBER:

What you all need to do is PROVE 100% with facts;

This is aimed at both sides not just the seller.

cultural items that can have been produce at anytime from the turn of the century to modern day then these need to be "proved they are period items and fit within the time period of the NS state if they are advertised as such on the e-stand"

There is no problem with the seller selling these items in the correct e-stand with a correct description, however to say they are NS/SS then it needs to be proven, if that is not possible then they are just traditional cultural items and should be listed as such.



A lot of these items were in production well before the NS period and well after, no doubt some of these older items found a use within that NS period but that does not make them NS/SS made cultural items.

[Thorsten B.]

This is aimed at both sides not just the seller.












There is no problem with the seller selling these items in the correct e-stand with a correct description, however to say they are NS/SS then it needs to be proven, if that is not possible then they are just traditional cultural items and should be listed as such.



A lot of these items were in production well before the NS period and well after, no doubt some of these older items found a use within that NS period but that does not make them NS/SS made cultural items.

According to the given statement I have three questions:

1.: If for example Mr. Fay would decide one day to sell a wooden so-called "SS MK casket" he will have to list it within the Bazaar section then - is that correct?

If so - why has it been tolerated that another member is allowed to offer such a casket there for sale and it still did not got pulled?

2.: As we all know there were SS cultural items being produced and in use by the SS - like being pictured within the SS family book to name just one example.

Will it be OK if I open a new thread within this forum sharing and discussing SS cultural items - or will it also be closed like this one in which I shared pics of my original SS Jul chest produced by DHW, an SS Allach Saxon urn and a tapestry decorated with runic symbols which I can give doubtless evidence that it was bought in 1940 in Berlin?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=655910


Thank you in advance for your clearifying answer regarding this matter.

[jabnus]

And may i ask of the moderators to remove all commments on this last page so that it remains clear that the topics Thorsten made are NOT what he claimed them to be?

Clearly Thorstens friends on this page keep defending him (they all have him as friend in their friendslist). Why they do this is beyond any reason, anyone with two braincells has seen and knows by now how Thorsten works. This is definately not about a witchhunt, this is about unmasking a very crafty person who has found a way in between the forumrules to fraud people of their hard earned money and do the hobby more harm than good by trying to get certain things accepted as the norm to simply earn more money himself. Thorsten very well knows that the things he calls SS cultural items are not such items in reality, but it helps him to earn more money if they were. Why do people still defend this? Gary Wood perfectly summs up what it is and should be about: A lot of these items were in production well before the NS period and well after, no doubt some of these older items found a use within that NS period but that does not make them NS/SS made cultural items. . No one here with serious interest and historical knowledge is doubting that there have been other than third reich period german cultural items, and by his many hundreds posts Thorsten has displayed he very well knows enough about these items too. Where it gets ugly is that he is trying to keep on selling other than third reich items as real and has frauded and lied thus many people of their money and tries to do so. Why some people still defend this is amazing, the only thing that comes to mind is that they truly must have no idea of what's going on. Please do a forumsearch, this is not a standalone matter, there are many dozen examples of Thorsten always the same behavior. These are hard words but unfortunately the truth. May i suggest to pin this topic at the top of this section for future reference and close it before it gets for Thorsten conveniently out of hand again? Michael Fay has made a very well reply in unmasking Thorsten's practice and there it should end, not with another flamewar caused by thorsten and his friends and then resulting in deleting this topic so that tomorrow it can start again, we have all too often seen this being played like that. Gladly so the mods see that too and don't fall for it again.


Regarding a new cultural topic: please no! To even have the guts to ask for it after being responsible for so much trouble and the closing of the first one and attempting to re-open another to continue the same behavior!!!! Since the closing of the monsterous cultural topic Thorsten is now finally forced to defend his items one by one, and now it is gladly so finally about the history and original items again, something the WAF was losing due to Thorsten. Anyone who has an interest in reading SOME of the background criminal activities of this person can have a 200+ pages read in the now closed cultural thread in this very same section. Many of the items Thorsten wants to post there have been postend dozens of times there and have been called out equally many times as bad, please don't allow to start this again as it will result in a big mess again and harm the hobby of cultural items even more. And for what it's worth: that wooden chest, tapestry, brooch and other items: there is definately no consensus about those yet besides Thorsten shouting the hardest as always that only he is right and others not. For a good read: please see the first post int his topic "Need to discuss this so called "NS/SS" wood Estand item", it answers everything well and the topic should have ended there. Too often have we seen and heard Thorsten state things as truth and after a lot of trouble as in topics like this be unmasked as a lyer. His above two requests are attempts to do this again. This topic was finished at the moment he was unmasked, may i please again suggest to pin it down and if necessary clean it up. This is not about a witchhunt, this is not about an incident, it's again and again about structural fraud, that harms this area of collecting so much more.

[Gary Wood]

Thorston,
You can start a thread in the political section of this forum to discuss "cultural item" as I have already posted in another thread.



It was hoped to have a dedicated forum section for these items and other cultural items but as yet that has not happened as the demand for such did not seem that great so that will have to wait.

You can list items as NS/SS in the e-stand if you can be prove there use and were made within the third Reich era I am not asking you to provide actually period photos of each item in use (that would be easier but no doubt still not enough for some) just enough factual evidence to support your claim that the items listed especially one off's is what is it supposed to be.


And I can see where you are trying to go with the SS wedding casket !


Now below is your description from your sales thread,


"The piece itself represents - masterly carved - the Ingrune,


due to the SS-booklet "Die Feier" (First issue, page 36; published via the SS-Hauptamt by RF-SS Heinrich Himmler) one of the three officially specified germanic runes representing the wedding ceremony and the tightness of love between the couple, between man and woman.

The octagonal shape of it´s ends reminds strongly of the SS Allach logo and is - among other elements - typical for period composition."


So lets address that Now,

Why is it a NS/SS wedding candle stick?

Your sales thread title was "NS/SS wooden wedding candleholder!"

why do think it represents a Ingrune ? does not the ingrune stand the other way up ? this would be a "Lying ingrune"and would have a nother meaning would it not?

Your mentioned quote from "Die Feier" does not make mention of a Ingrune candlestick or does it?



You also make mention of the octagonal shape to the ends as being among other elements typical for period composition" what is the proof of that and what are the other elements?

Unfortunatly To me it just looks like a twisted muliti piece candle stick that could have been made anytime so I await your reply with why it could be what it was listed as.

[Thorsten B.]

And may i ask of the moderators to remove all commments on this last page so that it remains clear that the topics Thorsten made are NOT what he claimed them to be?

Clearly Thorstens friends on this page keep defending him (they all have him as friend in their friendslist). Why they do this is beyond any reason, anyone with two braincells has seen and knows by now how Thorsten works. This is definately not about a witchhunt, this is about unmasking a very crafty person who has found a way in between the forumrules to fraud people of their hard earned money and do the hobby more harm than good by trying to get certain things accepted as the norm to simply earn more money himself. Thorsten very well knows that the things he calls SS cultural items are not such items in reality, but it helps him to earn more money if they were. Why do people still defend this? Gary Wood perfectly summs up what it is and should be about: A lot of these items were in production well before the NS period and well after, no doubt some of these older items found a use within that NS period but that does not make them NS/SS made cultural items. . No one here with serious interest and historical knowledge is doubting that there have been other than third reich period german cultural items, and by his many hundreds posts Thorsten has displayed he very well knows enough about these items too. Where it gets ugly is that he is trying to keep on selling other than third reich items as real and has frauded and lied thus many people of their money and tries to do so. Why some people still defend this is amazing, the only thing that comes to mind is that they truly must have no idea of what's going on. Please do a forumsearch, this is not a standalone matter, there are many dozen examples of Thorsten always the same behavior. These are hard words but unfortunately the truth. May i suggest to pin this topic at the top of this section for future reference and close it before it gets for Thorsten conveniently out of hand again? Michael Fay has made a very well reply in unmasking Thorsten's practice and there it should end, not with another flamewar caused by thorsten and his friends and then resulting in deleting this topic so that tomorrow it can start again, we have all too often seen this being played like that. Gladly so the mods see that too and don't fall for it again.


Regarding a new cultural topic: please no! To even have the guts to ask for it after being responsible for so much trouble and the closing of the first one and attempting to re-open another to continue the same behavior!!!! Since the closing of the monsterous cultural topic Thorsten is now finally forced to defend his items one by one, and now it is gladly so finally about the history and original items again, something the WAF was losing due to Thorsten. Anyone who has an interest in reading SOME of the background criminal activities of this person can have a 200+ pages read in the now closed cultural thread in this very same section. Many of the items Thorsten wants to post there have been postend dozens of times there and have been called out equally many times as bad, please don't allow to start this again as it will result in a big mess again and harm the hobby of cultural items even more. And for what it's worth: that wooden chest, tapestry, brooch and other items: there is definately no consensus about those yet besides Thorsten shouting the hardest as always that only he is right and others not. For a good read: please see the first post int his topic "Need to discuss this so called "NS/SS" wood Estand item", it answers everything well and the topic should have ended there. Too often have we seen and heard Thorsten state things as truth and after a lot of trouble as in topics like this be unmasked as a lyer. His above two requests are attempts to do this again. This topic was finished at the moment he was unmasked, may i please again suggest to pin it down and if necessary clean it up. This is not about a witchhunt, this is not about an incident, it's again and again about structural fraud, that harms this area of collecting so much more.

Unfortunately you present zero evidence for your harsh claims.

Instead of that you simply seem to be jealous about my shared historical knowledge and fine authentic pieces - whether it is my SS Gahr brooch, my SS Jul chests and other SS cultural pieces.

I do not know why.

Enjoy this splendid hobby.