Need to discuss this so called "NS/SS" wood Estand item

[COLLECT36]

Hello Gary,
thanks for your diligence.
I know this an onerous part of being a moderator.

You did the only thing as a moderator you could.Thats why with this forum in particular i read the pros and cons and let the buyer know to buy the item,not the story because sometimes guys buy the story and regret it bigtime!CDR

[Gary Wood]

Clearly Thorstens friends on this page keep defending him (they all have him as friend in their friendslist). Why they do this is beyond any reason,

.

But it is the same also with Als of his detractors as well 2 opposing camps !

Now stick to the subject of this thread which is the item which was listed as a "NS/SS WEDDING CANDLE" not the seller!

[Ric Ferrari]

But it is the same also with All of his detractors as well 2 opposing camps !

Now stick to the subject of this thread which is the item which was listed as a "NS/SS WEDDING CANDLE" not the seller!

....still waiting for evidence Thorsten is selling junk on purpose.

Ric

[Thorsten B.]

Thorston,
You can start a thread in the political section of this forum to discuss "cultural item" as I have already posted in another thread.



It was hoped to have a dedicated forum section for these items and other cultural items but as yet that has not happened as the demand for such did not seem that great,

You can list items as NS/SS in the e-stand if you can be prove there use and were made within the third Reich era I am not asking you to provide actually period photos of each item in use (that would be easier but no doubt still not enough for some) just enough factual evidence to support your claim that the items listed especially one off's is what is it supposed to be.


And I can see where you are trying to go with the SS wedding casket !


Now below is your description from your sales thread,


"The piece itself represents - masterly carved - the Ingrune,


due to the SS-booklet "Die Feier" (First issue, page 36; published via the SS-Hauptamt by RF-SS Heinrich Himmler) one of the three officially specified germanic runes representing the wedding ceremony and the tightness of love between the couple, between man and woman.

The octagonal shape of it´s ends reminds strongly of the SS Allach logo and is - among other elements - typical for period composition."


So lets address that Now,

Why is it a NS/SS wedding candle stick?

why do think it represents a Ingrune ? does not the ingrune stand the other way up ? this would be a lying ingrune and would have a nother meaning would it not?

Your mentioned quote from "Die Feier" does not make mention of a Ingrune candlestick or does it?



You also make mention of the octagonal shape to the ends as being among other elements typical for period composition" what is the proof of that and what are the other elements?

To me it just looks like a twisted muliti piece candle stick.

An exact identical wooden candleholder has been shared by member Capt. R. within the - now closed - cultural thread.
He shared his opinion on said piece that due to it´s age, outward appearance and shape it can only be a period wedding candleholder.

I agreed to his opinion and observations - already back then.

And nobody including Michael and Gaston raised any doubts in regards to his candleholder and his opinion and observation back then.

Now I own and offer an exact identical piece - and all of a sudden hell breaks loose!

The Ingrune appears on period NS/SS cultural pieces and buildings in many variations - the wooden SS-Sippenschrein (= SS-clan shrine) of SS-Obergruppenführer Schmauser designed and carved by Klara Ege and published in 1940 comes to mind as well as the Ingrune carved as decoration ahead of the door at one SS-building in Wewelsburg - the half-timbered house next to the SS-Dorfgemeinschaftshaus (=SS-village community house).

The Ingrune appears there standing or lying, that does not matter.

It has always the same meaning: it represents one of three officially accepted and used symbols of the wedding within the SS.

The sentence mentioning these three runic symbols within the SS-booklet "Die Feier" is as followed:

"Lebensbaum, Malkreuz, Ingrune sind Beispiele für überlieferte Sinnbilder der Hochzeit."

= "Tree of life, witch cross, Ingrune are examples of traditional symbols of the wedding."

We have seen within period pictures that different variations of candleholders were in use at SS-weddings - the important sentence on page 36 within the SS-booklet "Die Feier" is this one:

"Die brennende Kerze ist Sinnbild des Lebens ("Lebenslicht") und heiliger Bewußtheit. Bei unseren Lebensfeiern kann der uns vom Reichsführer SS geschenkte Julleuchter als Sippenleuchter Verwendung finden."

= "The burning candle is the symbol of life (probably "Life candle" or "living daylights") and holy consciousness.
At our celebrations of life (means birthday - wedding - death) the Julleuchter being presented to us by the Reichsführer SS can be used as a clan candleholder."

That means the use of the Julleuchter at SS-weddings was one possibility - not a prescription at all.

[Gary Wood]

An exact identical wooden candleholder has been shared by member Capt. R. within the - now closed - cultural thread.

Are you talking about this one?

[Thorsten B.]

No - I am talking about this one.

(Picture credit to Capt. R.)

[Gary Wood]

No - I am talking about this one.

(Picture credit to Capt. R.)

Do you remember the post number?

[Thorsten B.]

He posted it more than one time, that´s for sure.

And I think one time in December but I do not remember which year, sorry.

[Thorsten B.]

Do you remember the post number?

I finally found it.

It was comment Nr. 2031 within the cultural thread.

And this is what he wrote when presenting the picture back then:

"wedding stuff

my contribution since we are showing our candles. This one I think to be a wedding leuchter since it resembles the ing rune which is 2 life runes joined."

[PHILBROWN]

[QUOTE=jabnus;5778206]

Clearly Thorstens friends on this page keep defending him (they all have him as friend in their friendslist). Why they do this is beyond any reason, anyone with two braincells has seen and knows by now how Thorsten works.


who i choose to talk to or associate with is my business not yours, i dont apreciate your slur either

[Jack83]

[QUOTE=PHILBROWN;5784992]

Clearly Thorstens friends on this page keep defending him (they all have him as friend in their friendslist). Why they do this is beyond any reason, anyone with two braincells has seen and knows by now how Thorsten works.


who i choose to talk to or associate with is my business not yours, i dont apreciate your slur either

I second that. No need to drag down an adult discussion with insults.

[der-hase-fee]

I finally found it.

It was comment Nr. 2031 within the cultural thread.

And this is what he wrote when presenting the picture back then:

"wedding stuff

my contribution since we are showing our candles. This one I think to be a wedding leuchter since it resembles the ing rune which is 2 life runes joined."

That's where your E-stand description originates from ? Exceptional provenance.

Capt. R. was just showing all his carved wood fakes in one picture, the candle holder right next to the casket.

[pinkepank]

No - I am talking about this one.

(Picture credit to Capt. R.)

does that prove that its ns/ss and from the period it could still have been made in 1870

[Michael Fay]

An exact identical wooden candleholder has been shared by member Capt. R. within the - now closed - cultural thread.
He shared his opinion on said piece that due to it´s age, outward appearance and shape it can only be a period wedding candleholder.

This is not stated in your sales descripition, nor is is stated in "Die Feier" p.36 or anywhere else. And since when does someone thinking somthing make it a fact?

I agreed to his opinion and observations - already back then.

And nobody including Michael and Gaston raised any doubts in regards to his candleholder and his opinion and observation back then.

No one was trying to sell it, nor was any one claiming it was described in" Die Feier."

Now I own and offer an exact identical piece - and all of a sudden hell breaks loose!

The Ingrune appears on period NS/SS cultural pieces and buildings in many variations - the wooden SS-Sippenschrein (= SS-clan shrine) of SS-Obergruppenführer Schmauser designed and carved by Klara Ege and published in 1940 comes to mind

This is not in Die Feier, nor your Sales description

as well as the Ingrune carved as decoration ahead of the door at one SS-building in Wewelsburg - the half-timbered house next to the SS-Dorfgemeinschaftshaus (=SS-village community house).

This statement is not in Die feier. p.36 nor in Sales description

The Ingrune appears there standing or lying, that does not matter.

Dead wrong: The Ing rune is specifically shown on page right side up/horizontal. There is no mention it can be sideways. These runes have specific meanings standing upright...on p.36, the liferune is plainly explained to be meaning 'life' in its upright form, and somthing different when not upright, specifically 'death.'If it was specifically acceptable, to show Ingrune sideways, why did it only show right side up Ingrune in Die Feier?

It has always the same meaning: it represents one of three officially accepted and used symbols of the wedding within the SS.

As I stated in post one:EXact meaning of Die Feier states: "these symbols were for decorations on the ceremonial space and may be decorated with these runes along with greenery and flowers." There is NO mention of candles (or runic candle holders) in this sentence.
Further in the very next sentence it says:"The burning candle is a symbol of life(life-light) and sacred conscious. At our life ceremonies the Yuletide candelabra may be used as the clan light as gifted to us by the SS ReichsFuhrer." Which means the JULLEUCHTER.-no other candle is described here at all.

The sentence mentioning these three runic symbols within the SS-booklet "Die Feier" is as followed:

"Lebensbaum, Malkreuz, Ingrune sind Beispiele für überlieferte Sinnbilder der Hochzeit."

= "Tree of life, witch cross, Ingrune are examples of traditional symbols of the wedding."

There is no direct /specific mention of these runes/symbols as candle holders-as you show yourself which is why I started this post that your implication that Die feier descibes your item is not correct.

We have seen within period pictures that different variations of candleholders were in use at SS-weddings - the important sentence on page 36 within the SS-booklet "Die Feier" is this one:

"Die brennende Kerze ist Sinnbild des Lebens ("Lebenslicht") und heiliger Bewußtheit. Bei unseren Lebensfeiern kann der uns vom Reichsführer SS geschenkte Julleuchter als Sippenleuchter Verwendung finden."

= "The burning candle is the symbol of life (probably "Life candle" or "living daylights") and holy consciousness.
At our celebrations of life (means birthday - wedding - death) the Julleuchter being presented to us by the Reichsführer SS can be used as a clan candleholder."

Again, no specific mention or description of an Ing rune candle holder, nor any description of one that is sideways.
Of course, it is also debatable that the item in the sales thread is a rune shape at all.

That means the use of the Julleuchter at SS-weddings was one possibility - not a prescription at all.

As I stated from the first post
There is NO mention of an Ing rune Candle holder on this page.
I rest my case, again.

Finally, I expected this responce from you within one day after my initial post...why you failed to answer the original post in any meaningful way until now is beyond me.[QUOTE][/QUOTE]

[Michael Fay]

Thorston,
You can start a thread in the political section of this forum to discuss "cultural item" as I have already posted in another thread....

....You also make mention of the octagonal shape to the ends as being among other elements typical for period composition" what is the proof of that and what are the other elements?....

.

This a point I avoided to bring up as it was a second problem with the sales description. But it is now an excellent time to bring it up further.

This is the exact statement by Seller as to octagonal shape of item for sale

"The octagonal shape of it´s ends reminds strongly of the SS Allach logo and is - among other elements - typical for period composition."

In Die Feier on any page much less p.36 there is no mention of octagonal shapes alluding to Allach. This is simply vague authoritative sounding padding without any evidence . The writing it appears ,is vague on purpose. So it is implied to anyone reading it that this is also found in Die Feier, even though it is not.
Things like this need to be stated clearly as only the musings of the seller.