A Public Apology from Al Haag

[Rene Chavez]

Dear Mr Lumden,

I am deeply sad from what has transpired in the “Al Haag” forum thread. I had great respect for you as an author and a pioneer in the study of SS regalia but deceiving the collector community is no way to gain any trust.

I must admit that the “Al Haag” forum thread had me thinking about my SS cloth collection if it was original or fake especially since I collect foreign volunteer items.

I understand that we all do mistakes but not to purposely deceive the collecting community, which is not good. In spite of this discussion I do forgive you but unfortunately will be a while for me to gain your trust.


Rene Chavez
Http://axis101.bizland.com

[David C]

Robin,

It was a very stupid thing that you did. Quite how you could have expected to get away with it beggars belief. It would be bad enough if done by any old Joe Soap but for a man of your standing in the hobby? Why???

The nature of AH was obvious after the first few posts and it was embarrassing watching you squirm once you realised what a mistake it was but be unable to find a way out. I can understand fully why many of the members are very pissed at you for what you did. I think if you had been a Joe Soap you'd have been out of here already.

Whilst believing that we should all abide by the same rules here and considering what you did a sackable offence, I would not like to see you leave.

I hope you realise what a blunder it was.


Guys,

I am as shocked as you are and would understand if some of you think Robin's continuation as a member here be untenable. Despite this unfortunate incident I feel that Robin was, and still could be, a great asset to the forum. I would request that you find it in yourselves to forgive Robin this howler and allow him to stay.


David.

[Patrick W]

David,

I absolutely echo your sentiments. If any normal member had pulled such a stunt then I'm sure he would be shown the door very quickly. However, as the member in question is a 'name' in the hobby should he be treated any differently?
I think in fairness no. But Robin Lumsden has such a wealth of information and experience to share that I think he would be a real loss.
This forum is unique and pioneering in our hobby in the respect that there are major historians and dealers who participate here and as such this forum contains the best information available.
This is bringing back unpleasant memories of past days on TRF with Roger Honts and fake SS wooden skulls.......

[Ben]

Me think NOT! Misleading the Forum members on purpose with any intent?WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE OR NOT, IT'S UNFORGIVABLE FOR ANY REASON!

David,

I absolutely echo your sentiments. If any normal member had pulled such a stunt then I'm sure he would be shown the door very quickly. However, as the member in question is a 'name' in the hobby should he be treated any differently?

[junior]

So you think we should ban Robin?

[Ben]

What I said is that the rules go for everyone, knowlegeable or not. Anyone who intentionally misleads the Forum members, for whatever reason, should not be spared the consequences of their actions. What goes for Joe Simple should also go for the "rich and the famous". It is, however, up to the moderators to take any action if they would desire to do so. It is not up to "we" or "us" or even the person in question. Personally I think it was a despicable act that has caused unnecessary harm to the already frail collectors community. We simply don't need this kind of nonsense. Period!

So you think we should ban Robin?

[Raym']

As a recent arrival, I had not paid much attention to the Al Haag thread, but I have just read it through and Im shocked by the content. Whatever Robins reasons- and Im sure they were sincere - this is not the way to go about it. Open and honest discussion is always the only way to go, even when we meet opposision and contrary opinions. If you think something is seriously wrong, just come right out and say so. If I were in Robins shoes, I would be gone already!

[Jean-Loup]

What realy gets me in this affaire Robin, is that your behaviour was simply irational. Al Haag wasnt going anywhere or prooving anything. He was totaly unconvincing and phony with his "foul langage" argument. And even worse, how can a professional policeman not know about the fact that your computer can be recognise by its IP number (or whatever its called).
Collecting is just a hobby for me, and internet is not the center of my life, so I dont find the whole Al Haag stunt that dramatic; but I am simply and sincerely woried about your psychological stability when you start having irational and in this case very self distructive behaviour.
This said, I think you should stay amongst us. Having you leave wont do any good.
JL

[Gary Wood]

Robin,
This is not an apology or explanation it is a feeble excuse you are trying to justify your actions when you actions had no justification at all other than self gain to prove what you think is true is true.

You expressed you disbelief in the Dachau tabs in that thread and said you were open to any new information when in fact you are not, your reasons at the time was the line on the back and there are so many around, the latter is irrelevant but the first issue was proved that non dachau tabs can have lines thus your theory is hot air, your opinion was not born out and you presented actually NOTHING and i do mean zippo as to why they were fake.

So you tried to manufacture the evidence to prove yourself right at the expense of everyone else, you interfered in buys and sales of 2 forum users, you used and abused this forum for your own gain.

You added to the paranoia that is rife in this hobby today, you insulted everyone of us and you still insulting us with a post like this you left it far too late to come clean, you probably watched this forum not signed it until you thought the time was right, your only sorry you got caught, if you have not got caught how would it have ended,


Imagine this scenario,

AH is not found out,

AH refuses to send the fake insignia to me,

But AH sends them to Robin because Robin is well respected,

Robin then provides pictures of the fake insignia from AH and yes they are the same as the dachau tabs.

Thus proving his point and what he has been saying all along Bravo!

Then we come to this post and the reward post, well the thing you will probably have learned for next time is be more careful, so you post a reward post to try to back up what you are trying to tell us here that you are doing it for our good,

You already put a primer in this thread "I was hoping to bring someone out of the woodwork", start a new thread offer a reward, Then imagine, at a time you think is right bang!

Hello I am the guy out of the woodwork the dachau tabs are fake I used to make them blah blah blah, only this time your will have perfected your other ego, in ways not to be traced to you.

As I have said you have insulted us all and still do with lame post's like this do you honestly believe people are going to believe a word you say, in the AH post I thought you might have been tied up being a bank holiday and all but I see you used your time coming up with another fairly tail.

We maybe only mere mortals here but we certainly are not that stupid


Regards,
Gary

[Jean-Loup]

That is a very frightening scenario you imagined Gary, and it could very well have become true. The concequences of this would have been dramatical to the SS insignia collector comunity. This should be a lesson for us that the internet has very severe weeknesses, and that no one, not even the greatest specialist should be blindely trusted.
If that scenario had happened; who would have thought "oh, maybe Robbin sent himself the tabs...". It would have been unbelievable. And yet, it could almost have come true!
JL

[Matt L]

The question I'd ask is does anyone really believe that after all this Robin would do anything devious to prove a theory again? It sounds like this all turned out so badly that he'd be QUITE sure never to repeat this action. I've never really been a big believer in the 'did it once, can do it again' idea- just because someone hasn't done anything before doesn't mean they wouldn't, and just because they have doesn't mean they'll do it again. In fact, if things end up going badly, I'd trust someone who has done something bad but learned their lesson as they have a reason never to do it again.

I'd also suggest that people consider this- is there any reason to believe Robin was dishonest in any previous work? It sounds to me that this was simply an error in judgment- probably borne of extreme frustration. That's not saying it's right, but not entirely beyond understanding. And as I said before, it went so wrong, it's likely no on would try it again...

So, it seems to me that while some may feel hurt they were deceived, I would hope that it's something that can be gotten over because it would indeed be a shame to lose someone who has been, and would continue to be a valuable contributor to the Forum.

Matt

[Tom M]

Gary.

That is very frightening , and by the looks of how Al Haaq AKA Robin was posting, there was nothing stopping him. This is just taking the Pi$$ out of everybody here. Disgraceful. The "$1000 reward" is just another con. It's like saying "these are fakes, although I have no proof and probably ever won't, that I am prepared to put money on it!" You put everybody crapping their pants about their items and I can bet you all got them out and were looking at them that night wondering whether they were real because of a man of your stature. Credibility has been demolished and you only have your self to blame. You need to forget about these Dachau tabs, and perform a miracle to regain your crediblity back.

There needs to be an attitude change Mr. Lumsden I'm afraid and try to keep your personal agenda to yourself.

[Bill D.]

I previously posted my thoughts about this episode in this thread.


I then deleted them. My belief was that Mr. Lumsden had announced that he was leaving the Forum. That was then to be the end of what I considered to be an absolutely disgraceful episode.

Now, it seems that Mr. Lumsden's resignation was EXTREMELY short lived.

It was, he tells us, "a mistake".

Hmmmm. You, Mr. Lumsden, are a police officer. I submit this to you: If an individual parks their automobile in a spot and then neglects to place a coin in the parking meter, they have made "a mistake". If that same person creates a plan that will damage the value of the property of others, soley to prove a point that he advances; if that individual adopts a disguise to carry outh the plan; if the same person engages in carrying out the plan, but fails because he has been caught in his deceptive actions; then that is most certainly NOT "a mistake".
The "apology" was utter, self-serving nonsense!

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">I had hoped that 'Al' would bring someone else out of the woodwork who could produce real evidence of these things being fakes. There were signs of some reaction, both here and on the GDC site, but the whole thing backfired and that's that. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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And exactly how was THAT supposed to Happen ??
Was someone NOW going to step up and say "As a matter of fact, this Al guy is correct, because I was buying these collar tabs from HIM in the 1970's for a buck each!". Was someone going to come forward and say "Well, I know that Robin Lumsden has argued that these are fake without a scintilla of proof, and in contravention to countless documented examples, but I never wanted to come out in support of him with my own evidence. However, now that this unknown Al Haag has shown up, I will produce my own evidence that they are fake."

A lie was advanced, and the lie was repeated, and all for the purpose, it seems, of ego. Mr. Lumsden said that he thought that these tabs were bad. He was basically rejected in this Forum. So he created someone to provide "proof" that he was correct after all, no matter who got harmed, no matter how many collectors with genuine tabs might be harmed in the process of this ego trip.

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">What this has taught me, among other things, is that no-one is really anonymous here - even people who don't exist! We can all be 'tracked'. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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In other words, "I haven't really learned anything except that the next time I try to scam someone, I had better keep in mind that I might be traceable."

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Oh, now THAT'S a sincere apology.

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

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I'm sorry, but how is carrying out a planned course of deception, which was initiated as an attack on a Forum member's offering on the e-stand, conducted "with the best of intentions" ???? How does casting doubt on legitimate militaria because your opwn ego needs gratification represent "the best of intentions" ????

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">I am convinced that someone, some day, will come up with incontrovertible proof that these tabs are just not right. I had hoped that 'someone' could have been me, but it was not to be. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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See references to "ego", above. "I was willing to lie, to deceive, to sow untruths, and to damage the value of other peoples' colections, in order to try to prove that I was right all along, no matter who got hurt."



This was despicable, an example of lying to advance a personal agenda that could do nothing but harm the hobby. It was carried out, in part, by deliberately lying about something that another Forum member was offering on the e-stand.

All of this "My apologies, I was trying to get a discussion going" by Mr. Lumsden is CRAP ! There WERE discussions on this topic in the past. He didn't like what he was told. So he engaged in a blatantly deceptive attempt to advance his own view, to the potential detriment of others.

He would have done nothing, he would have made NO admission, if he had not been exposed.

How many of us would be understanding and accepting of this episode if WE had five thousand dollars invested in the types of SS tabs that he set out to discredit ????

How would we feel if a dealer did this ? Dealer Joe Smith posts as "Joe Smith". Dealer Smith sells high quality RK fakes on his website. Dealer Smith then creates a false identity of "Fred Jones". Then "Fred Jones" posts on the Forum with a completely fabricated story about how his uncle came home from WW II and "Here is his stuff and his souvenirs, and oh, by the way, here is a Knights Cross that he brought home in 1945, and look, everyone ! It's the same type that dealer Smith sells that so many people think are bad ! Well, I guess we all need to re-think our position on these crosses !"

That would not be relegated to the category of "mistake".

[trotlin13]

How would we feel if a dealer did this ? Dealer Joe Smith posts as "Joe Smith". Dealer Smith sells high quality RK fakes on his website. Dealer Smith then creates a false identity of "Fred Jones". Then "Fred Jones" posts on the Forum with a completely fabricated story about how his uncle came home from WW II and "Here is his stuff and his souvenirs, and oh, by the way, here is a Knights Cross that he brought home in 1945, and look, everyone ! It's the same type that dealer Smith sells that so many people think are bad ! Well, I guess we all need to re-think our position on these crosses !"

This analogy is flawed. Your purveyor of fake RKs seeks material gain from his fradulent scheme - he desires to take your money in exchange for something he knows is fake. Lumsden did nothing of the sort. He assumed an alias and fictionalized a story, all in the hopes of proving something he readily admits he could not do on his own accord. I do not believe he was attempting to con anyone out of their hard earned cash although it is obvious he did interfere with at least 1 sale on the estand. His actions are not criminal, but they are tortuous, and Lumsden should be dealt with accordingly. However, I fear this episode has made him a pariah in the collecting community, and this is punishment enough for a man who has seemingly dedicated his life to this pursuit.

[tom hansen]

I am really somewhat suprised at the statements of some forum members regarding this issue. I would hope that everyone in this situation, as well as others in life, would give someone a second chance when an error has been made. The man apologized. Why can't we be men about it and leave it at that.


For Christ's sake, cut the guy a break! As noted above, I would bet that this episode would not recur, and one should be forgiven a momentary lapse in judgement. Have any of you guys who are so hostile ever done anything wrong in your life? Were you banished from that social circle as a result?