Heinz Macher and Fritz Witt grouping.

[Dmv]

thumbs up for Rob

Down for Kai "the rat" Wanker and we know what that meant in Roman times...

[Glenn McInnes]

Interesting thread,and how very,very sad.

But as with most of these criminal dealers they will just carry on trying to screw unsuspecting collectors for profit..I doubt it will ever change.

It seems collectors tend to forgive and forget really easy in this Hobby though,and probably why most of these dealers are still in business.



Thanks for posting this Rob.



Glenn

[rob NL]

Interesting thread,and how very,very sad.

But as with most of these criminal dealers they will just carry on trying to screw unsuspecting collectors for profit..I doubt it will ever change.

It seems collectors tend to forgive and forget really easy in this Hobby though,and probably why most of these dealers are still in business.



Thanks for posting this Rob.



Glenn

Very well spoken Glenn, we have the power ourselves to stop these dealers.
But many just don't, afraid they might just not get offered that real item that dealer has.
Your are welcome

[rob NL]

There's more to this story, will post more tomorrow.

[rob NL]

A dignified thing to do Rob, congratulations.

Ian

thumbs up for Rob

Down for Kai "the rat" Wanker and we know what that meant in Roman times...

[rob NL]

Rob,

At the start of this wonderful thread you mentioned that the son was in on the deal as well..!

Can you explain further?

How does this look in practise?

Does each item come with its respective CoA/ statement, signed by the son?

Do you have a copy you can share for us to back up your statement.

I think it would do the collecting community good to learn how something like this
actually looks.

Thanks again for the eye-opener!

Markus

No, don't have a copy.
But all items are stated as coming from Witt, by the son.
Wich is very, very sad.

[rob NL]

It would be inte resting to see if the tuxedo badge on the Witt tuxedo is one of the fakes.

Nope, that one was actually real, believe or not

[Glenn McInnes]

we have the power ourselves to stop these dealers.

afraid they might just not get offered that real item that dealer has.

This is my take on it as well Rob..But what can be done to stop it?


I know of a very knowledgeable,well known collector who got burned on a very high end fake that came from this particular dealer. I think it was why he gave up on the Hobby and got out of it.





Glenn

[markus]

No, don't have a copy.
But all items are stated as coming from Witt, by the son.
Wich is very, very sad.

Did Kai show you the letter or whatever it was?

Did it specifically mention each and every item or
only something generic like:

"I herewith confirm that all medals, award documents,
uniforms, etc. come from the estate of my father Fritz
Witt (...)"

Do you think it is possible the son did not know what he
signed and might be wrongfully accused?

The reason I ask is because in the case of the Michael
Wittmann awards (which are real replacement awards
sent to the widow after her husband's death) the old
woman bearly being able to sign, signed a very detailed
letter of authenticity you just know she could not have
written by herself....

[John Pic]

These things can even fool a high end dealer...thats what bugs me...when these things appear at the tables of the big guys...and the attatchment of their name makes things real.

[markus]

These things can even fool a high end dealer...thats what bugs me...when these things appear at the tables of the big guys...and the attatchment of their name makes things real.

I agree with you John, but then again, the name (tag) attached to the items actually
helps you identifying whether an item actually belonged to said perdon or not.

In the case of someone so famous as Fritz Witt, there are so many photographs
in books which one can check and see whether the tunic/coat etc was
really worn by him during the time or not.

No item one case see here on this thread come even close to what Witt wore during
the war or before. No item whatsoever!

The name tag also points towards the family. A phone call away...one could ask the son(s),
The daughter (Ursula Witt), etc.

And I would never buy such an item right at the dealer's table for
let's say Eur 35k before not doing a short check-up.

Only my way of seeing this. No rock-science IMO.

Markus

[CWP]

The way these items are named is also a major red flag that something is fishy here. On the helmet, the writing is in Suetterlin handwriting but the "t" characters descend below the baseline, which is incorrect, and the Latin-type "e" is used, I have never seen a Suetterlin text that used the Latin "e." The Holters labels in the greatcoat and Brigade tunic were obviously written by the same person but supposedly more than 5 years apart, the handwriting on the tag uses the Suetterlin capital "W" but the first letters of the months are written using the Latin "M" and "N" as was taught in schools after 1941, although mixed handwriting did exist these examples to me look very dubious (no surprise as they are in fact fake). Also, on the printed cloth name tags, the word "Nummer" is abbreviared as "No." instead of "Nr." After seeing a fake RB number stamp that used the "No." abbreviation I have been looking for an actual period German use of this, so far without success. It seems that the crook would have been able to craft a more convincing scam if the items were attributed but not named. And that suitcase is an absolute laugh riot that belongs in an Indiana Jones movie.

[John Pic]

Markus I agree but what I am saying is that we are starting to see lots of high end items being found and when they are compaired to the originals they fail yet they are still quality made items i.e. the Goering Grand Cross documents . All it takes is for a highly regarded high end expert to say Rob or myself or anyone else of smaller stature in the hobby are full of goop and these in fact are original...mark my words this will happen eventually.

I have to say Winkler is not alone there are other dealers pulling off the same stunt with lower ranking yet rare as hens teeth tunics and wraps....

Also see the thread on the Erhard Milch tunic in the Luftwaffe Uniform forum...someone paid a retirement for that too.

Oh I forgot to add that Witt did wear the Cyphers on his brigade fuhrer tunic at least it appears that way in period photos.

[John Pic]

What's remarkable to me is that even though all the cyphers have the same flaw they are toned and aged differently on the other tunics with quite remarkable results...he must have a team of highly skilled Oompa Loompas.

Can someone post a known original ?

[markus]

John, you are right. There is in fact a photo showing cyphers on
his Brigadefhr boards. How strange. I take back my earlier comment!

I don't think anyone wants to show a good cypher on a public forum
though.

The hobby is in a very sad state. Traders have a very easy game
fooling people and getting away with it. Look at what has happened
in the art market in recent years. Kai has completely turned his
business around specializing on fakes only and is making a way better
cut/business than going by the book. He's a very smart guy.

Check out all the uniform items for sale on Andreas-Thies and
Hermann Historica sites in recent years. Who is supplying these..?
I think we pretty much all know by now.

Markus