SS Julcandle and document: how rare

[Thorsten B.]

Don, I have a question now:

can you remember that Erich started this thread about showing some of his cultural items?

[Jon Fish]

Come on boys, toys back in the pram and concentrate on the interesting subject being discussed.The handbag stuff is boring !!

[Capt. R]

Don, I have a question now:

can you remember that Erich started this thread about showing some of his cultural items?

Don't start something you cannot finish. You attacked me.

[Capt. R]

So that´s your way of saying "Thank you" for my help to you - not only within this thread.

I start to feel sorry for you now.

For future reference, we simply don't need your "help"

[Michael Fay]

Back to the Julcandle groupings rarity

Don, I have a question now:

can you remember that Erich started this thread about showing some of his cultural items?

Thorsten, if you would tone down your arrogance, you might notice that Eric did not start this thread. Instead I started it.
And it was supposed to be about the Julcandle , the box and the document that went with it.

Now back to my threads original intent:

At the current count of known candles (boxes and documents loose or not), I note my sugestion that they are very rare is still holding true.

What may have been lost in the last few days is that one of the Julcandle documents posted in this thread came up for sale in the estand and was put on hold in less than 24 hours.

[Thorsten B.]

Sorry, I got mixed up with the other thread.

Of course the candles, boxes and belonging documents are very rare, no doubt.

Furthermore there are some Jul-Postkarten around which are freaking rare as well and I think they could be a nice add to this thread as well.

[Capt. R]

As to your German history survey : the German definitions were taking into account the Nazi era use of words as it specifically pinpointed Nazi-Deutsch coinage of words. That is the benefit of a 50's-60's Dictionary ...they still took note of them.


I took the german word terms directly out of : The New Cassell's German Dictionary: 1958 copyright and 1965 printing. This edition is revisedand re-editied by Dr. Betteridge M.A.(Birmingham);Ph.D. (London) Senior lecturer in German at the University of Glasgow.
So I stand by the definitions as I stated.

A Familie Chronik recently offered on a militaria site had the following legend on the cover, "Sippe Mann" which was translated to mean Clan of the Mann famliy." If this is not a modern addition to the cover, it may hold some meaning for this discussion. I do not think it is too much of a reach to make close parallels between the Familie Chronik and the Sippenbuch. In fact, the two may be similar or the same and one may have transformed into the other - perhaps at the time the SS Celebrations book was published (early on) the plan was to call it a Sippenbuch but as more were printed/mass produced, it became known as the Chronik? Plausible in my opinion. Why have 2 separate books? What purpose did it serve? Until we know the exact contents of the Sippenbuch, the contents and interior of the Chronik substantially matches the description of the Celebrations book! It fulfills the exact purpose detailed in the celebrations book.

Another theory is that the sippenbuch was similar to a centrally held Church Registry where there was only one sippenbuch per district or area and all weddings and births were centrally recorded much like is done at the Register of Deeds - one repository for these clannish records while the family held their own Familie Chronik at home.

Another theory is that the Sippenbuch was issued by the State and recorded the life events but was presented in a keepsake book and displayed by the family.

We will not know for sure until someone who owns one will please clarify.

[Ojoneso]

Hi guys,

here is my candle doc.
I think is rar and hard to find.
It was 300€ really price from collector to collector

best Regards Sebastian

[Thorsten B.]

Now that´s a great score - Congratulation!

[Capt. R]

Still another theory:

It is likely also that the Sippenbuch or Clanbook is a distinctly different volume than this Familie Chronik. The Sippenbuch may be far more rare becasue it was not issued or maintained by individuals but by the SS itself, whereas this Chronik is the book referred to as occupying the ss eck and held by individual ss families.

The Marriage Order of the RF SS states in point number 8 the following:

The Racial SS runs the "Clan Book of the SS," in which the families of SS members will be entered following the granting of marriage license or affirmation of the petition to enter.

This Order helps form the basis of my conclusion and is why I talk about a centrally held record/Registry, below.

A Familie Chronik recently offered on a militaria site had the following legend on the cover, "Sippe Mann" which was translated to mean Clan of the Mann famliy." If this is not a modern addition to the cover, it may hold some meaning for this discussion. I do not think it is too much of a reach to make close parallels between the Familie Chronik and the Sippenbuch. In fact, the two may be similar or the same and one may have transformed into the other - perhaps at the time the SS Celebrations book was published (early on) the plan was to call it a Sippenbuch but as more were printed/mass produced, it became known as the Chronik? Plausible in my opinion. Why have 2 separate books? What purpose did it serve? Until we know the exact contents of the Sippenbuch, the contents and interior of the Chronik substantially matches the description of the Celebrations book! It fulfills the exact purpose detailed in the celebrations book.

Another theory is that the sippenbuch was similar to a centrally held Church Registry where there was only one sippenbuch per district or area and all weddings and births were centrally recorded much like is done at the Register of Deeds - one repository for these clannish records while the family held their own Familie Chronik at home.

Another theory is that the Sippenbuch was issued by the State and recorded the life events but was presented in a keepsake book and displayed by the family.

We will not know for sure until someone who owns one will please clarify.

[Thorsten B.]

Don,

I don´t think so.

The central register heading in Berlin was surely something different.

[Capt. R]

Can you offer any theories of your own or some evidence as to why you disagree?

How does this explain the RF SS Order?

[Thorsten B.]

Don,

How should thousands of SS-family members be able to be documented within that small book?

[Capt. R]

Maybe there were many volumes of these books centrally held in a state office. Or the shown supposed sippenbuch is not the kind of central ledger/registry I'm talking about. Maybe those were destroyed and we've never seen them. Unless the sippenbuch was actually a familie chronik, we still have not defined what exactly a sippenbuch was so many theories are possible. What do you think is probable, then?

Instead of asking your previous question, how about you try to explain the meaning of the RF SS Order relating to the sippenbuch or offering your own theory on it?

[Capt. R]

Whether there was only a few or one Sippen book as shown in photo made or not, is beside the point. Except then is is ever so rare-if still in existence.
Or to be very clear, if none have surfaced,that is beside the point.
I see many SS cultural items in old SS leitheften that I have never seen shown anywhere.
But the photos displayed in such SS leitheften and other Buchen for the SS(and Polizei) readership show me they were real, and important to buttress and promote an SS ideological-cultural world view.


In Himmler's new vision of a world order , some things were being re-interpreted while some things could arguably be said to be simply made up.
In that sense, logic will fail us, and the idea that things can be created to suit the needs of a new world vision might have some bearing on your questions /points?
Other than that, perhaps we have differing theories and will not agree? This I suspect is the final position: that we disagree.
Either way, one is for sure: there is a lacunae of surety when it comes to this topic.

an interesting and thought provoking discussion.

Just for more perspective I'll add what I noticed:
The original Weitzel says "sippenbuch" and the English copy translates this to mean, "ancestry book." But if that were true wouldn't it be ahnen...? Sippen could also mean "kinship" or "clan" I believe.