SS Julcandle and document: how rare

[Michael Fay]

3 full grouping and 7 loose docs

Michael,

maybe you overlooked it: as I already stated in comment 8 the german dealer website "history-shop" sold as his Articelnr. 33489 (visable still with pic in his archiv on the site, one must log in to be able to see that) a complete grouping:

Julleuchter combined with Julkerze still packed in it´s original box together with the Julkerze document from 21.12.1943 - so there are three known groupings so far.

Other Julkerze documents from 1937-1944 are in the hand of Mr. Patzwall - as written and showed within the article of Heinrich W. Schild in the November/december issue of Patzwall´s Militaria journal.

Ok,
with your info someone has another full grouping: so there are 3 full groupings
I just counted 6 Julkurze docs in the Patzwall's article you cite(-The other docs are either strictly Julleuchter documents or invitations to a julfest celebration).
So although we dont know if these got back into the collecting world and could be counted twice here, lets allow them as counted for now:
that makes by my counting about 6 +Rene's = 7 loose documents.
Not counting mine.

[Michael Fay]

Please do not leave that box and candle in the car during the summer.
Jp

Slightly related, is that I surmise the candle color of the JulKurze we see now has changed over time from it's original color due to the viscitudes of time and temperature changes.
---That is just a theory of mine.

[Capt. R]

I understand your point.
Like I said over and over, this is not of interest to everyone.
For me, it is most interesting.
Actually, I kind of wish no one cared about this stuff at all. I have little desire to see demand rise for these things.

I still remember when I could do a search throughout all of WAF and there was nothing on SS culture except the long departed (and missed) Dr. Donald Abenheim's threads.
While it seemed like I was alone, it was sure easier and cheaper to find what I am interested back then.
But the cat is out of the bag, so i might as well have as much enjoyment talking about it now

Michael, I have never seen the candle or box for sale or even in many collections at all. I do not know enough about it, yet I would still say that it is indeed an extremely rare item and you are lucky to own one. It is also a very culturally significant item as you are very well aware. I do have a julleuchter with what I believe is an original candle similar to the ones shown here, half burned, still inside the julleuchter. I will try to send a photo but it can be seen in some of my older posts of my display kabinet. I do know of one other julleuchter presentation card in a private collection but no candles/boxes.

On another matter, I'd be interested in seeing some of the old posts of Dr. Abenheim. Are they still searchable on the Forum? What was his user name? Thanks for some excellent posts recently - I've enjoyed learning from you and discussing these pieces with the other members.

[Michael Fay]

Dr. Donald Abenheim

Michael, I have never seen the candle or box for sale or even in many collections at all. I do not know enough about it, yet I would still say that it is indeed an extremely rare item and you are lucky to own one. It is also a very culturally significant item as you are very well aware. I do have a julleuchter with what I believe is an original candle similar to the ones shown here, half burned, still inside the julleuchter. I will try to send a photo but it can be seen in some of my older posts of my display kabinet. I do know of one other julleuchter presentation card in a private collection but no candles/boxes.

On another matter, I'd be interested in seeing some of the old posts of Dr. Abenheim. Are they still searchable on the Forum? What was his user name? Thanks for some excellent posts recently - I've enjoyed learning from you and discussing these pieces with the other members.

Hello Capt. R,
a presentation card is a different paper document, I believe, if you mean the smaller card "like" item. I dont think you mean the standard page sized document as shown in my two photos-

Donald Abenheim used his full name as his user name (so do a search of his name) , and many of his posts are still to found here, I do believe.
He left WAF about late 2007 or early 2008 over the very marked decline of member's conduct on WAF, among other things .
While he did not say much about SS ideology, what he did say, was enough for me, as he was and is an important academic.
As an aside, his main collecting passion was "fetid cloth," as put it. Especially SS visors.
He had quite a way with sentence structures.
He always answered my PMs with generosity and erudition.
-MF

[ronin]

i don't want to go into rare or not rare thing, but i saw one candle with box without the document 2/3 years ago on dealer's site.

nice corner btw

[Anthony Evans]

jul candle with box is very rare. but as far as the rarest for a jul-corner i would say a sippen-buch or jul-wheel or clan chest, and debateable the birthday ring (i would put that towards the top of the list due to the fact the SS member would have then to have a kid). granted this is just my opinion

[Thorsten B.]

I agree - although some examples of the Sippenbuch have already shown up on the market.

[Jon Fish]

2K a pop for a candle in box !! That has to be a prime candidate for a fakerall you would need is an original.

[Michael Fay]

jul candle with box is very rare. but as far as the rarest for a jul-corner i would say a sippen-buch or jul-wheel or clan chest, and debateable the birthday ring (i would put that towards the top of the list due to the fact the SS member would have then to have a kid). granted this is just my opinion

I think there are more chests out there than candles. But perhaps we will will all see as maybe more will speak up if they have a candle?

As for the wood stuff, I have found that those supposed experts on SS wood cultural items are not trustworthy. The candle grouping is undisputably SS and undisputably made for the SS korner.
When we look at most wood pieces, it will not always be so easy to prove it is SS. Or even TR era. Especially when it is made to fool. So they loose their lustre a bit for me.
I dont have to wonder about the SS candle...I know EXACTLY what it is.
Again, I think there is more wood stuff out there than the candle.

[Michael Fay]

i don't want to go into rare or not rare thing, but i saw one candle with box without the document 2/3 years ago on dealer's site.

nice corner btw

Hello Ronin,
I cant count that one, no offense, as I cant know if that is one previously counted. I need to have actual owners, or actual dealer sites, or museums, etc. sourced as where they are at.where we can reasonably tally one up and then not count it again later.

thanks MF

[Anthony Evans]

well i guess mathmetically there could be more candle holders then chests due to the fact they could have used any wood chest as a sippen-chest. and thorsten where have you seen these sippen buch? i know in the past 3 years or so about 1/2 a dozen or so familien-chroniks have popped up

[Rincewind]

Here is another document which was in my possesion.

[Kuifje69]

Sippen Buch

Dear Anthony,

About the familien-chronik I know Hermann Historica had one on his last auction and currently there is one at Militaria321.com (at least the last time I looked)

Best regards,

Rene

[Thorsten B.]

To Anthony:

On the dealer´s website "Hannahsreich" there is one example of the Familien-Chronik directly on their main page visable - so I assume that this dealer owned that piece once and sold it in the past.

Another example of the Familien-Chronik had been offered and sold not too long ago by Kris from "Thirdreicharts" and it is still visable on his website among SS cultural items.

To Michael:

It is easy: If you feel insecure about the authenticity of different wooden items just show them here for discussion - it won´t be the first time that the gathered members here can help.

[Michael Fay]

To Anthony:

To Michael:

It is easy: If you feel insecure about the authenticity of different wooden items just show them here for discussion - it won´t be the first time that the gathered members here can help.

It is becuase you have broken your word to me over and over in the last few months regarding your repayment to me that I have lost any trust in your judgements.You have been shown to be just another bad dealer.
It is sadder as you did learn somthing from some of your old x-comrades like Heinrich Schild.
Anything you offer now is compromised.