Question for Herr Lumsden!

[Jean-Loup]

If the Dachau patches were worn, then how can they be fake? There must be worn and authentified examples that have the lines, etc?
JL

[Tony Barto]

If the Dachau patches were worn, then how can they be fake? There must be worn and authentified examples that have the lines, etc?
JL

I'd like to make a suggestion. Why don't you jump into the picture and ask one of them if you can cut his collar tab off so you can see the reverse?

I really think this thread has digressed past the point of being ridiculous.

[Dan T]

Great thread but one thing has always bothered me as a Foreign Volunteer shield collector, is the sheer number of these shields that surfaced post war,allegedly from Dachau.
I mean there must be literally thousands of unissued latvian, Albanian, Italian shields etc that were never worn and not seen in period pics on tunics.I can't think of any other area of Third Reich collecting that has so many items unissued but people believe to be original.
Where and when were they produced and why was there such a surplus? The Albanian Legion was little more than a locally based militia, propanganda pics are non existant and it's performance in combat was a joke, deserting when faced with any organised resistance.
Why on earth when the German war machine was in it's death throes, with materials in short supply creating inferior quality uniforms,did they knock out thousands of these shields?!

Bevo shields however, have no authenticity issues and are desirable and for some Legions (Free Indian and Free Arabien) very rare to obtain.


There is something about these Dachau shields which makes me uncomfortable every since I started collecting shields and I have never sought to add them to my collection.

[Gordon Williamson]

Did Lee make an effort to only take NON EXOTIC stuff?

I mean, some nice stuff there...but what are the chances that he only got totenkopf and SS patches etc. etc. and none of the really exotic stuff... law of averages?
I am sure his stuff is good...but why did the other guys come back with all the off the wall stuff?....

A matter of personal choice I presume. I can well imagine some of the G.I.s seeing the stuff there and grabbing whatever they could lay thier hands on while others would look only for stuff they recognised as SS (runes and deathsheads) probably not even knowing some of the more bizzare patches were SS.

I know that Barry took care to get a "trail" of evidence from Lee, including wartime photos of him posing with the stuff, photos of him posing with the stuff at the time Barry bought it etc. This particular haul of Dachau stuff probably has better provenance that most stuff in collections today.

As Perry says, Barry is the man when it comes to vet acquired stuff with provenance.

Personally, though I don't have an interest in collecting SS cloth, if I did, Gary is the man whose opinion I'd value. Gary has a tremendous knowledge of textiles and the textile industry in general. I'd put money on his ability to sniff out fake modern cloth a mile off. He has examined plenty of "Dachau" tabs and if he thinks they are real, that, coupled with the number of reliable vet-bring back stories, is good enough for me. Just glad I don't collect the stuff.

[Peter Wiking]

Why on earth when the German war machine was in it's death throes, with materials in short supply creating inferior quality uniforms,did they knock out thousands of these shields?!

If you are interested in the shields of volunteers, you should know that insignia showing what contry they came from, was just important as weapons.

Cheers.
Peter Wiking

[Dan T]

If you are interested in the shields of volunteers, you should know that insignia showing what contry they came from, was just important as weapons.

Where did you get that from? The early Germanic volunteers yes, but most French veterans in the Charlemagne division recall NO shields being worn late in the war when these Dachau patchs were allegedly made.
Probably figured a MP40 was more important to get hold of than a shield, when running around the ruins of Berlin!

The Foreign Volunteer movement had far more use in propanganda than combat.
I have never seen a Dachau shield in any sort of period pic be it propanganda or combat.

[Tony Barto]

First collar tabs and now no evidence of shields... Someone else look for and post photos. I'm tired... After this little thread perhaps we should question the very existence of the SS. Perhaps the vets of the Thunderbirds made it all up.

[Peter Wiking]

Norwegians volunteers where told that they would get Norwegian uniforms when entering Waffen-SS. They did not get that and got angry over this and expressed that to the German leaders. It ended with German uniforms with insignia showing their nationality. The ones who did not get any prodused their own. The volunteers did not fight for Germany in first hand, they fought for their own nations and Europe. To not give the volunteers an identity could be dangerous.
Read my posts in this thread about the Hungaria units and the efforts made to produse patches, cuff titles AND armshields to those units.

Tony.
They have no faith

Cheers.
Peter Wiking

[MartyC]

insiginia

For what little it is worth, around 1965 a veteran from the "Rainbow" divison I believe told me I could go through his trash can and pull out whatever "Army" stuff I wanted that his wife had just threw out. Amongst the Nazi party flags, Hitler armbands, etc. I pulled out several SS collar tabs, most of which were for foreign volunteers. These had the white stitch lines on the back. I traded these tabs to other kids for stuff (please remember I was 13 years old then), but I still have the bevo runes tabs (white backing, no stitch lines) and one 29th division tab (has the stitch lines) which I will scan later after I dig it out. Point is these came from a veteran or at least from his trash. I believe his Division did go through Dachau at some point.

Marty

[Perry Floyd]

Yes that division is the 42nd. They entered Dachau nearly the same time as the 45th.

[Chris_Werner]

First collar tabs and now no evidence of shields... Someone else look for and post photos. I'm tired... After this little thread perhaps we should question the very existence of the SS. Perhaps the vets of the Thunderbirds made it all up.

Tony: Of course the SS existed. Next thing you know, you'll be denying the existence of Dachau. I know they are real because Steven Speilberg made a movie or two about them!

[Tony Barto]

[Gary Wood]

well since you guys think they are fake I will buy all you have at fake prices :-)

[Blitz]

Well, this thread is really something! I personally doupt that there was an organisation called dramatically the "ss". I've never met Himmler or "Gestapo mueller" so i really don't know.. They could be just pure fantasy for all i know..

[MartyC]

tabs

Back of tab I referred to earlier:
Also, if all SS tabs with white thread on the reverse are fake you need to turn them over to me . I will give a dollar each!!!