Question for Herr Lumsden!

[Perry Floyd]

Another example after another.

Mr. Lumsden are you still saying nothing like this would be found at Dachau? Are you saying now that these never existed or they existed but would never be found at Dachau? What about other items liberated at Dachau? SS fezs, M43caps, etc, etc??...
Again I ask if you can lay out your theory as to how this was done...

[Peter Wiking]

I think it was good of Robin Lumsden to questioning these tabs. This thread has been very educational to all of us, and i think we all can conclude with that the Dachau cloth items and the "white thread on the back patches" are original.

Cheers.
Peter Wiking

[Gary Wood]

Different manufactures produced items in different ways, who is to say that the any of the non ss wartime patches that he could produce were made by the same maker as the so called Dachau items! for an example award badges did all manufactures use the same type on pins or catches, NO, are some pins and catches associated with certain badge manufacturers, yes

Were all ss patches made the same, no,

Did all the ss patches utilise the same backing material material and buckram, NO

Do all runic collar insignia look exactly alike, NO different makers and a multitude of other reason to do with manufacturing.

Did all ss patches utilise this aid to manufacturing that you see on the Dachau patches, NO did some well yes!

to blow a hole in the theory you would only need ONE non dachau made patch with a line on the back, That I provided in post #40 and again below.

You will also notice I also posted 2 of what you collector have called the pumpkin head tk patch, both mint examples, one has the line and traces of a cutting line, the other does not, now as there appears to be only one maker of these why are the lines either present or not, we probable will never now, but I would suggest possible;
that they both initially had the lines and one of the individuals who was making the patches up removed the lines while others did not (and please don't come back with why because I do not know) or were possible made at different times I am not saying that is how it happened just a possibility of maybe.

And with regard to these items been made at Dachau, I do not want anyone to think that when I said I have seen no evidence that they were that is final, I personally have not they may have been or they may not.

I should imagine that the US war office took many photo's of the Dachau complex, in that the camp and the surrounding manufacturing area's, no doubt these photos will be on file, and I do not know how assessable these items are, but it sure would be interesting to see what machinery there was there!
cheers,
Gary

[Gary Wood]

and the back of this wartime embroidered runic, the backing material is badge cloth

[Gary Wood]

And the back of the above Totenkopf patch for robin, this does not have the positioning line associated with the dachau tabs its has only a cutting line,and also not all of this type has even that line. the base material is moleskin
cheers,
gary

[Gary Wood]

and again to illustrate what I have mentioned regarding the Pumpkin head tk patches I posted, the first is one of my examples the other is one that has been posted on the net by someone else, one has no stitching on the back and the one that belongs to someone else has traces left of the cutting line
cheers,
Gary

[Gary Wood]

the back of the above

[Gary Wood]

this is a used example that was posted and I am sorry I cannot remember who it belongs to front and back shots,

[Gary Wood]

the back of the used example

[Peter Wiking]

Great photos Gary.

Peter Wiking

[Robin Lumsden]

As I've said many times throughout this thread, I never impuned the honesty or integrity of any vets, although some seem to think I did.

The simple point I was trying to make is that I don't, never have, and never will trust these so-called 'Dachau' patches. I've given all the reasons for this belief throughout this thread, and don't wish to repeat them.


A point was made about people not being able to sniff out a fake by looking at a picture on a PC screen. I agree that's true in many cases. But isn't that just what forum 'experts' here purport to do on a daily basis? So how much trust can we actually put in all the 'expert' advice being offered through this and other internet forums?

As regards the TK tab Gary, I'm pretty confident the back will have the lines on it, as I suggested earlier. The runes patch looks fine to me.

Eric and Prorege - thanks. That was what I was looking for. Some evidence to help prove/disprove the Dachau tabs.

This has been running for a week now, and has at times degenerated into a slanging match which was never my intention. We are all beginning to repeat ourselves.

I haven't read anything so far which makes me change my mind regarding these so-called 'Dachau' tabs.

I do not question that US troops took stuff from Dachau in 1945.

I do question whether all these so-called 'Dachau tabs' which have been circulating in their zillions since the 1960s and 70s are part of that hoard.

That's my own honest opinion, based on my own experience and handling of militaria over 30 years.

Many, indeed most, others who have posted hold a different view. No problem. I wholly accept that. It's their money, not mine.

We'll agree to differ on this occasion.

Just remember that it wasn't that long ago when everyone in the civilised world thought the earth was flat, and dismissed the guy who stood up and said he thought it was round. And a story about the emperor's new clothes also springs to mind.

Oh - and Baz. I don't need a lecture on the niceties of historical inquiry.

[Robin Lumsden]

Gary.

I was typing the above post when you posted yours, so thanks for a look at the back of the TK tab.

Cheers.

Robin.

[Gary Wood]

"A point was made about people not being able to sniff out a fake by looking at a picture on a PC screen. I agree that's true in many cases. But isn't that just what forum 'experts' here purport to do on a daily basis? So how much trust can we actually put in all the 'expert' advice being offered through this and other internet forums? "


You know I have tried to keep this on track, and it has been heated even edited out some of my post's but you keep putting in those snide remarks so let me deal with that first,

Robin,
Now you are trying to demean the forums by saying can we really trust what these guys are saying which is again another cheap shot at the forums and there users, these forums have saved its users countless amount of money and its free, they do not have to wade though countless books, they do not have to buy books, everyone here gives there time and opinions freely and is not paid for it.

And it always amazes me how many disgruntled people always try to take the term expert or guru's and turn it into a dirty word when things do not go there way, and I think you will find unlike some authers no one hear has come out and said that they are an "expert" So if its such a waste of time why bother to join!

Now to the cause of this thread,

You said in brief that "you do not believe" that the tabs with the line on the back the so called dachau tabs are real as these lines do not appear on anything else be it ss or other services only appears on the dachau tabs, thats is what you have said.

And you were asked on more than one occasion to bring your facts to the table and present them you have brought non at all

You say that no evidence has been brought forward,

I disagree there is plenty in this thread that totally disproves your theory lock stock and barrel, You just cannot accept it and there really have not been any comments from the very big players in this game either, and you might probably ask why, because it was a crackpot theory to start with and not worth the effort.

"The runes patch looks fine to me."

"but suffice it to say that I've still to see any example of non-Dachau tabs with the lines"

You agreed the runic I posted was OK, a non dachau tab with RZM label and it has the lines proof enough! Theory blow out the water,

"We'll agree to differ on this occasion."

There is nothing to disagree about Robin that single NON DACHAU RUNIC TAB blows your theory end of story!

Cheers,
Gary

[Perry Floyd]

"I do not question that US troops took stuff from Dachau in 1945."



What did they take then? I am astonished that you don't believe all these veterans lied but yet still dismiss any of these items were brought back. Now from your wording you sound as only certain items were to be found at Dachau and some are fanatasy. You are constantly asking for proof and proof keeps being posted. But yet you only bring "ahh, they're not real" to the table of discussion. Sounds like now it's, "Ahh, they brought those back from Dachau but not these items".
I'm amazed in your 30 years of collecting you have allways felt this way, considering what proof is out there. It's like you have been stranded on a island with no outside communication for 30 years.

[Robin Lumsden]

Gary.

The comment I made about 'experts' was NOT aimed at you or anyone else on this or any other forum.

It was a general comment.

I think this forum is a very good thing for collectors - otherwise I wouldn't have joined it.

I've already stated on numerous occasions that I have much respect for your knowledge of SS insignia. And I don't delight in pointing out the mistakes of others. On the contrary, I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of such criticism.

The bottom line is I'm just an old stick-in-the-mud who has his own theories about this particular series of collar tabs.

Others will disagree, and that's fine.

I don't think I can say much more.

Regards,

Robin.