Question for Herr Lumsden!

[Bill D.]

Absolutely no question about the American veterans taking large quantities of mint, unissued SS cloth insignia out of Dachau. A friend of mine met such a veteran and aquired, along with insignia, a brown piped SS visor cap. It was not the gold mine that Bob found, but it was significant !

[Robin Lumsden]

Gary/Bill/Basil and all.


This thread is going well. I'm certainly not trying to cast doubts on anyone's integrity. Far from it. I have great respect for all those named by you.

I know a bit about the SS and so I know about the MT and H tabs undoubtedly being OK - it's some of the others I've still to be convinced about.

I hope this thread keeps going the way it has done.

Perhaps someone has a '45 photo of a vet with all the stuff he brought back from Dachau - rather than just photos of 'the stuff'??

That would be a killer.

And can anyone post that photo of the SA rune patch in wear?


Cheers.

Robin,

[Peter Wiking]

Thanks Gary for the photos.

Peter Wiking

[Basil]

[QUOTE=Robin Lumsden]

I know a bit about the SS and so I know about the MT and H tabs undoubtedly being OK - it's some of the others I've still to be convinced about.

Robin,

Off the top of my head, in recent years I've seen photos of:

The Indian 'Tiger Head' collar patch in wear

The Skanderbeg sleeve shield and cuff-title in wear

The 'SA' collar patch in wear

Plenty of examples of the double-arm swastika in wear

Plenty of examples of the 'Dirlewanger' collar patch in wear

All of which have been the subject of doubts at one time or another.

I have yet to see any examples in wear of, for example: the closed 'sunwheel' collar patch; the Italian 'Fasces' collar patch and sleeveshield; the Skanderbeg collar patch; the 'Karstflower'; the 'Horst Wessel' cuff-title; the 'Wolf's Head' collar patch and green Osttuerkischer Waffen-Verband cuff-title, all of which were found at Dachau. I'm happy to accept the explanation that these things were made at various factories and stored at Dachau on the basis that they would eventually be issued but that that never happened; equally, I look forward to someone finding photographs showing these insignia being worn. But I really don't see any reason to doubt that they actually existed!

Cheers,

Baz

[Gary Wood]

Robin,
Lets put the boot on the other foot as it seems you have the doubts which is fine to have contradictory opinion, but when you go against the grain you need to be able to support the theory

So Can you prove these collar patches did not exist pre may 1945?
cheers,
Gary

[Robin Lumsden]

OK. I think I need to clarify something.


I do know that a range of non-Germanic patches existed and were worn. I know that the double-armed swastika, 'H', Dirlewanger, Sun & Stars, Maria Theresa etc. etc. were issued and worn. I've even seen the Fasces in wear. I hesitate to mention it, but I've discussed all this in some detail in my SS books.

What I'm genuinely questioning is whether the 'Dachau' patches are the same as those being worn in the photographs, or whether the whole range was reproduced with a host of others which we have no evidence were ever made or worn at all.

The Danish Flag patch, for example, was worn only until 1943 at the latest, but it's among the 'Dachau' series. I know we'll get the 'old stocks' argument, but would it have made sense to store new examples of insignia which was never again to be issued??

The ones in the Dachau range which I have most doubts about are:

The closed sunwheel
The Trident of Vladimir
The SA Rune
The Goat's Head (yes - I know the Skanderbeg shield & title were issued)
The Cross of St. George
The Burgundy Cross
The Russian Orthodox Cross
The Wolf's Head
The Tiger's Head

The Burgundy Cross is a good example, allegedly meant for Degrelle's troops. The Walloon brigade/division existed as a fully functional formation for a lengthy period of time, but never wore such a badge. That being the case, why should such an animal be in the Dachau stores??

As has already been alluded to, Dachau was a huge complex which included, among many other facilities, a uniform repair shop and storage area. It did not manufacture SS badges. Manufacture was contracted out to several different companies.

I know embroidered badges were issued right up until the end of the war, but in general terms the SS moved towards Bevo badges was the war progressed (Bevo runic and skull patches coming in in 1943). So why would all the later non-Germanic patches be embroidered??

Could it be that embroidery was easier to produce in the 1960s than woven items??

And as for the white threads on the back being 'cutting guide lines', why don't they appear on other types of SS patch??

Has anyone ever seen 'white guide lines' on the back of Luftwaffe patches, panzer tabs, police patches, etc. etc.??

As far as I'm aware, they only appear on this 'Dachau' series.

I'm sorry, I've still to be convinced. Perhaps I never will be. I am not convinced that the Dirlewanger patches, Hunyadi patches, double-armed swastikas etc. that we see in wartime pictures are the same type as the bundles of 'Dachau' stuff.

Can I reiterate that I am not trying in any way to throw doubt on the integrity of anyone. I just think that this is an important area that we need to clarify.

If someone can come up with something concrete, instead of hearsay, I'll be the first to accept it.

A lot of money changes hands for some of these patches, and there seems to be an inexhaustable supply of them which has gone on and on since the 1970s. Even by Dachau store standards, supplies should have been dwindling by now!

It's like the CCC with top hook. Did anyone ever see one of these before 1980?? Now every second sales list has one.

I just don't buy it.

Best regards to all,

Robin.

[Gary Wood]

"the 'Horst Wessel' cuff-title"

Baz,
there is a picture of that cuff band being worn which will no doubt be published in vol. 2 of cuffbands by Gordon williamsom, I have seen this picture and the title is the BeVo like band,

cheers,
Gary

[Chris_Werner]

And unfortunately, the bottom line is that we will never know for sure. I suspect that many of the non-germanic repros were "bootstrapped" into "originality" by claiming that they were a 45th division Vet pick-up. Unless the patches were purchased directly from the Vet., how do we know for sure?
Col. Angolia has a complete series of the non-germanics, which he says represents 40 years of "hard" collecting. He has them framed on a display board, and most of them look mint, unissued.
I agree with Mr. Lumsden that although there are "originals" out there, the field has been flooded with fakes since the 1960s. It would be nice to find them on a real salty tunic, with no evidence of tampering or prior removal.
As for me, I'll spend my hard earned money on less "controversal" items.
(Unless I can get them directly from a vet. )

[Robin Lumsden]

Chris.

Well said.

Cheers.

Robin.

[Gary Wood]

The Danish Flag patch, for example, was worn only until 1943 at the latest, but it's among the 'Dachau' series. I know we'll get the 'old stocks' argument, but would it have made sense to store new examples of insignia which was never again to be issued??

The Danish patch was only worn for a period of about six months and while in training, yet there are 2 distinct machine embroidered pattern on this patch,and hand made items, perhaps some of our Danish collectors can fill you in with the relevant information




"And as for the white threads on the back being 'cutting guide lines', why don't they appear on other types of SS patch??"

they do! there are plenty of runic's with RZM labels (which would make them early wartime) out there in collections that have a line, also the thread is not white it is the same colour as the rest of the patch, not only would this line be on collar insignia but eagles as well and anything that is machine embroidered, as the embroidered items would have to be cut out of the sheet by hand afterwards, the cutting guides were there so there was a uniform cut, the lines you normally see on the back of the patches are a guide to where the buckram is to be placed other wise you would get patches in all sorts of positions, this is a subject I have done research on and in not hearsay

And if the line is a trait of fakes as you are implying why are there many fakes out there without it???????


"Has anyone ever seen 'white guide lines' on the back of Luftwaffe patches, panzer tabs, police patches, etc. etc.??"

I wasn't aware that the above services utilised machine embroidered collar patches perhaps you can tell me because non come to my mind.

below is an example of a early wartime runic on badge cloth with the line
cheers,
Gary

[Peter Wiking]

This is from Siegrunen nr. 51 by Richard Landwher 1991.

26. waffen-Grenadier Div. der SS "Hungaria" Strength: 23,000 troops.

The "Hungaria" Division was issued 1,000 letter "H" collarpatches along with a number of armshields.
The official Hungarian SS insignia was to be manufactured in a factory in Budapest. The factory produced its first batch of insignia when it was cut-off by the Soviets in Dec. 1944. A special courier airplane flew out 5,000 letter "H" collarpatches and 5,000 armshields and cuff titles.

The book says.
German made "H" collarpatches were never issued even though they where manufactured.

Further:
Insignia was widely manufactured within the Hungarian SS units.



To me its possible the collarpatches ended up at Dachau.

Cheers.
Peter Wiking

[Peter Wiking]

More:
The "Hunyadi" Division received 600 pairs of the official letter "H" collarpatches.
Used by the divisional staff and two honor guard companies.

Further:
"Hunyadi" had a few "Hunyadi" cufftitles issued as well.

Cheers.
Peter Wiking

[Robin Lumsden]

Gary.

I'm not saying that the lines on the back equals fake in all cases, or that no lines means originality. That would be naive.

What I'm saying is that the Dachau range is suspicious in my view, and the lines on the back are characteristic of that entire range.

I take your point about the panzer and Luft tabs, but let's widen the debate.

Can anyone post any type of other embroidered Third Reich collar tab, sleeve diamond or whatever which has these lines on the back??

Regards,

Robin.

[Robin Lumsden]

Peter.


I know about the 'H' patches being issued. I'm not disputing that. I've covered all this before.

Robin.

[Peter Wiking]

More:
SS-Kampfgruppe "Ney" was supplied and equipped through the 22nd SS Cavalry Div. "MT". A cornflower collarpatch was used along with an armshield.

Peter Wiking