Question for Herr Lumsden!

[Robin Lumsden]

THIS IS THE BEST BANTER I'VE HAD IN AGES!!

[Perry Floyd]

Ok so if your right, where have the 45th 42nd vets picked this up at? That would mean they have all lied about the same story and same items. Not only that, they have duped many pickers/collectors in buying these items, they have fooled everyone in various locations thoughout the U.S. with these items and their story..so if your right how did they pull off the hoax? How did it happen? Sway me to believe your right...

[Gary Wood]

The ss badge makers were just manufacturers of badges, in otherwords a business, and badges were made as cheap as possible to the customers specification, wasting raw materials especially in construction would put the production cost up and thus the cost of the item to the buyer would be higher, and as in modern business tenders are put out to different manufactures to produce a said item, cheaper you can make more chance you will get of getting the contract to make them, also manufactures had different working practices, but go do some research yourself on the matter.


You can see I have already posted you a wartime non dachau runic with label which would make that type of patch pre end of 1942, so is that patch a fake?


I am sorry if I sound kurt but I have heard far to many old wives tale in the past that are passed on collector to collector with no basis of proof, its the same with a lot of books, they just copy earlier book re arrange the wording and also repeat the mistakes, an example which was repeated time and time again was original ss woven trapezoids have 2 rows of teeth, fakes have 1 row of teeth, this was because one author compared his example to a known fake, noticed the fake had one row of teeth and hey presto that is the difference, trouble is all the machine woven examples made by the firm of BeVo had one row of teeth, so when you write book you have responsibility to get it right end of story, because once it is in print its always out there are some people take what is written as gospel.

As I have mentioned above its up to YOU to PROVE to US your theory is correct, you are supposed to be researcher, and just like your working practices in your day time job, in other words come up with some evidence rather than just your opinion which has no proof to back it up or in other words just hearsay!
cheers,
Gary

[Gary Wood]

"so if your right how did they pull off the hoax?"

And for what reason would they do it, in other words "probably cause"
cheers,
gary

[Chris_Werner]

Is there something in the air? Go to G.D.com and check out the thread in the SS Uniform Section about a Reality check on SS Cloth. WOW!

[JOHN VD HEIJDEN]

re

Very nice thread
England against Schotland


I,m also thinking about writing a book about ss-insigna
because i want to get a full-pro

[prorege1]

Nice thread - good fun!

Robin, your quote "Himmler expressly forbade the wearing of SS runes by non-Germanics, although the latter term was diluted as the war went on. If they all were to wear runes, there would be no need for the other patches at all."

Take as an example the Danish volunteers, they were originally supplied with the trifos collar patches during their initial training at Hamburg and they only used the trifos for a few months in 1941, thereafter the standard SS runes were authorised from late 1941. Apart from the trifos and SS runic collar patches they also carried the Danish flag collar patches (in the reserve regiment) - the rule is that there is no general rule when it comes to the W-SS volunteers.

[prorege1]

Robin,

Ps: My avatar on the left, it's a Danish flag collar patch, this specific type is confirmed in use in wartime pictures. It's chain stiched and manufactured in Denmark - just to complicate matters...

[Peter Wiking]

The reason why we dont see photos of these collarpatches and dont forgett arm eagles from Dachau, removed by Americans could be security. The material removed from there could be evidence on what nations and units that where involved, directly or proposed. Evidence on units that where or would be fighting for the Germans. Maybee photos where destroyed when they showed badges for Hungarian, Norwegian, Brittish ? and so on.
What a shame it would be if there where photos showing thousands of badges with Danish, Norwegian and Brittish flags and symbols for German uniforms.

Cheers.
Peter Wiking

[Tony Barto]

Tony.

Where is the 'glaring undisputed evidence'? I've still to see it.

Christ Robin, all you have to do is open up damn near any reference book on SS insignia or do a search on this or other forums for the photos. Additionally, the words of veterans aren't to be trusted by you and I see this is gonna go nowhere fast so I'm recusing myself from this topic.

[Gary Wood]

Peter,
Also think about the mass pile of bodies in dachau and what the atmosphere must have been like, do you think the insignia would have been taken then or later I would guess later after this had been cleaned up and tempers calmed down, but that is just a guess and also were the items taken with consent of higher authority's or were they just swiped by the troops on the ground, I have seen autherisation slips with a list of items vets have had sent home, so there must have been a system to do this , perhaps some of the US collectors who have purchaced items this way can tell us more,

Regarding photos; if you look at the time frame from when the invasion started how many pictures do you see of allied troops taking pictures of there spoils!!, Non Dachau spoils!yes there are a few, but do you honestly think that all the troops would stop and take detail pictures of insignia they liberated, would they waste film on that! I would say on the whole not likely but no doubt some did but they would be in a minority, the troops would have other things on there mind,like staying alive, making sure they had food and all those inportant things close to the soldiers heart that we civilians take for granted, so just because there is no photo's readily available for us collectors 60 plus years later of the now vets taking the items does not mean what they are saying is untrue and to hint of this borders on insane.

Not only that even if they did take photo's of the items the photos would not be of the quality to determine if the items in the picture were the same as what they had to sell or give away and this would also be used in a negative way to try to discount the items, so photos are ok but you can turn that around both ways, as I have already mentioned the items themselves have to stand on there own merits, and I see nothing strange or different in the Dachau type patches when compared to other produced ss insignia that would cause me concern,

I do recall there is a series of books although at first it was just one volume called war booty, if my memory serves me right (I might be mistaken) was there not shots in there of vets with the items they brought back, I am sure I saw one with the items laid out on the bonnet of a car, any one got pictures of this or the said books?

Having said that there are a lot of story's out there of vet acquired items which are just bogus, in other words a selling tool, which does cheapen the true vet acquired items,
cheers,
Gary

[Chris_Werner]

A fellow lawyer I know was a Tank commander in WWII. I don't remember which unit. He liberated one of the camps, again, I'm not sure which one. ( A senior moment, sorry.) I was traveling with him about 3 hours south of here to depose a prisoner with a civil rights claim for 8th amendment violations. I represented the jail, and he represented the officer.
We got to talking about WWII, and as a young lawyer, I listened to his stories with great interest.
He told me that one of his crew members had a Brownie Camera, and had been taking pictures of the camp, and the terrible stuff they saw there. The MPs confiscated his camera, and the cameras of a lot of other guys in his unit.
Bob wasn't sure if it was for evidence, or security reasons, but he recalls that the MPs were very aggressive in their efforts to confiscate cameras as the order came "from the top."

[Gordon Williamson]

A collector friend of mine in the US, Barry Smith, purchased all of the military memorabilia of John Lee (see the link in Die Kniepe re the shooting of SS troops at Dachau in which Lee participated). This is part of the haul that Lee brought back including SS insignia taken at Dachau. Note the unusual fur cap.

I haven't had the chance to contact Barry so I hope he will forgive the use of his photos.

[Gordon Williamson]

This photo of Lee posing with some of his trophy's (note the fur hat) was taken in Germany in 1945.

I'm sure Lee would be amused to hear that the stories of troops returning from Dachau with captured SS insignia are considered spurious in some quarters.

[InfanterieSammler]

Historical Accuracy

Perhaps Hitler is alive in Brazil today, I have never seen a picture of him on the couch in the bunker with a bullet hole in his head. Robin, you will have to forgive me as I had bought several of your books when I first started reading/collecting, but have since sold them and cannot reference them. What have you written on Hitler's death. Do you believe that Hitler is dead, or do you accept at face value the stories of those who were in the bunker. There are no photo's of a dead Hitler. Do you believe that Otto Guensche et al. have more credibilty than dozens of US 45th Inf.Div. veterans? Here is a simple question that requires a yes/no answer; do you believe that dozens of US 45th Inf.Div. soldiers have conspired to defraud the collecting world with a the story that they liberated insignia in question from Dachau in April/May'45? A lack of a photograph is not part of an historian's method when disproving an historical event in question. As a historian, you must be aware that photographs were only invented in the mid-19th century. Do you discount all history before the mid-19th century due to lack of photographic evidence? Robin, you are the one with the theory, the onus is on you to prove it. A point of curiousity, how many US veterans present at the liberation at Dachau have you interviewed?

Below is a direct quote from the noted SS cloth insignia collector Bob Hritz which he posted on a thread in the GD Forum. I believe this quote my also answer your question as to why the lack of photo's from this time. It would have gotten a soldier court martialed - “From one senior NCO, I got approximately 2000 pieces of SS insignia. He had been in charge of the destruction of insignia stored in the clothing and insignia works. His C.O. ordered 4 enlisted man, under this NCO to cut each piece of insignia in 3 pieces, separate each of the 3 pieces, and burn each third separately. He had a hatred for the "Nazis" and did not wish to have these items used as souvenirs that could, one day, glorify the "Nazis". This C.O. threatened Courts Marshall against any one of the team members who 'stole' even a single fragment of this insignia. This team was also responsible to remove any insignia on uniforms, in storeage, so that the stripped uniforms could be used for clothing for the liberated prisoners. This activity took place for over 8 hours a day for about three weeks, when an Army Cpatain ordered the destruction stopped and each piece secured for distribution to soldiers and dignitaries who would be touring the prisoner camp. On this day, my NCO began to blouse his trousers and took his share of the insignia. The insignia was sorted into like items bins and each visitor was allowed to take what he wanted. When the supply ran low, limits were set on how many pieces were allowed to be taken. Ultimately, the insignia ran out. Prisoners were asked if more insignia could be produced from the existant materials and embroidery machines, but there was no interest by the prisoners, no one else knew how to operate the embroidery machines, and the idea was scrapped.”

John