Question for Herr Lumsden!

[SgtB]

Hi Robin!

This question has bugged me for years!

On page 93 of your book "A Collector's Guide To Third Reich Militaria",
you showed the interior of a Allgemeine-SS EM/NCO cap with a paper
inserted in the sweat diamond, with the name 'Tiefenthaler' on it.
You stated that the original owner inserted this himself.

Then on page 79 of your next effort "Detecting The Fakes", you show
the interior of the same cap (please don't tell me it's a different cap, as
I've heard that here before), with a piece of paper with a different,
typed name tag which you state is the owner's name , rank, SS number,
and unit.

So which name tag, if either, is the original one?

You show an original SS typewriter on page 139 of "Fakes".
Is this a clue?

[SgtB]

Here it is

[Tony Barto]

Hi Brian;

I personally don't own any of Robins books but from the photos you've posted, they DO look like 2 different caps.

[SteveR]

Here it is

If I may be so bold to offer an opinion. If you look at the caps upside down, an old graphics artist technique to compare graphics copies. You will imediately notice a few similarities such as the thread tail. But you also see the difference in the wear and staining of the SS mark.
It is my personal opinion that theses are two different caps. Just an observation from an old art teacher.
Steve Ray

[Robin Lumsden]

Brian.

Well spotted.

The Tiefenthaler label came with the cap, but is in pencil and almost illegible. The other label was made to illustrate a point for the 'fakes' book, then binned.

The fakes book has come in for a bit of criticism in recent years, and I'm the first to admit that it is now woefully out of date. However, in its defence, I have to say that when it came out in the 1980s it was the first book that had attempted to tackle this thorny subject in any detail. These were the days when the internet wasn't even a twinkle in its daddy's eye, and the vast amount of information which can now be exchanged at the touch of a button just wasn't available.

Even today, I can't think of another book (excluding a few privately-produced pamphlets) which has been written on fake Third Reich items. The internet probably makes such a book unnecessary in any case.

Things change, and knowledge grows, and we're all the better for that.

Regards,

Robin.

[Gary Wood]

"I have to say that when it came out in the 1980s it was the first book that had attempted to tackle this thorny subject in any detail"

I have to say now thinking about it that yes your book was the first I can think off that covered fakes,and the only other book I can think off that cover's the same subject (which came later) is one of the soldat titles by Cyrus lee,
cheers,
Gary

[Chris_Werner]

The Soldat series is very good, I agree.
I will say that although "outdated", Mr. Lumsden's "Detecting the Fakes" still has a lot of very good information, especially for novice SS collectors. I refer to mine on a regular basis. When you read it, then spend your time with the forums, you are pretty safe.

[Robin Lumsden]

Gary.

I'd completely forgotten about Cyrus Lee's book, which came out a few years after mine and which was much better from the point of view of illustrating a large number of repro items. Cyrus did a really good job with that one.

It still never ceases to amaze me how some collectors still buy books, look at the pictures, then form an opinion on the value or otherwise of the books from the photos alone. There's usually a lot to be learned from the TEXT. On the other hand, I've got books where the pictures are first class but the written material leaves a lot to be desired. The trick is to balance the two - not always easy.

Chris.
Thanks.

Best regards,

Robin.

[Gary Wood]

Robin,
I agree a lot of people just look at pictures, but even pictures are not fool proof, I remember seeing a really rare cuff title posted on the "GD" forum by a member in the BeVo format saying merry christmas:-), also a lot of people take what is written as gospel again that can be dangerous as sometimes the information is based on opinions not fact's,
cheers,
Gary

[Gary Wood]

then the following year I think it was this one

[Chris_Werner]

Are those post-war?
Seriously, I know exactly what you mean. (Rather presumptuous of me!) I have seen some really beautiful "picture books" with incredible full page colour photos of uniforms I'll never handle in my lifetime. (Unless I win the Lottery or become legal counsel to Odessa!) However, the "thread counter" details are few and far between, and the books are of value only to "drool" over. I would love to read in excrutiating detail about manufacturing techniques, the RZM, embroidery techniques, etc., etc. But boy oh boy, those beautiful photos just floor me!
I imagine though that a book with a comprehensive text, AND incredible full page photos would be huge, and very expensive. However, I'd stand in line to buy one.
I have Beaver's Series, Angolia's books, Bender's series, Mollo's and of course, those by our new esteemed forum compatriot! And I'm just getting started on my reference library!

[Robin Lumsden]

Gary.



What you say is true. In fact, I think that the majority of any book content when dealing with subjects like this comes down to personal opinion. As we can see from any page of any forum, collectors young and old, new and long-standing, can debate until the cows come home and still agree to disagree over whether something is original or not - SS 'Xmas Division' cufftitles excepted! The bottom line is that each collector has to be satisfied in his own mind that what he is buying is good for him. I always remember the old maxim - 'Don't buy for investment. Only buy what you will be happy living with'. It's absolutely true. You get more pleasure from an EK2 that you're happy with than from a RK that you have little nagging doubts about. As another example, and I know this will ruffle a few feathers, I have never been happy with all these so-called 'Dachau' collar patches with white threads on the back. They are always mint - or near mint. Can anyone document the Dachau story? Or is it just another of these urban myths? Sure, there was certainly an SS clothing depot there, but who can prove this story passed from one generation of collectors to another about all these patches coming from there? The very few patches which I have seen over the last 30 years which I know to have been removed from SS uniforms because they came from the old soldiers who did the removing, have never had these white threads on the back. And do you think Himmler would ever have contemplated approving a patch bearing the SA rune? I don't think so, yet this patch and others even more fanciful form part of the 'Dachau' range. And I wouldn't rely too heavily on the SS 1945 map - look at the other anomalies there. Many collectors trust 'Dachau' patches. I, personally, don't - but that's not to say I can't be convinced, given proper evidence. The point I'm trying to make here in a roundabout way is that phrases like 'If in doubt - don't' and 'If in doubt - leave it out' are good advice, I think, for any collector of anything.

Cheers.

Robin.

[Basil]

Mr Lumsden,

I have a suspicion, from the twenty or so years that I have spent trawling through SS archives, that Himmler didn't have a terribly well developed sense of irony, and may well not have seen the joke with the SA collar patch. Certainly there seem to be one or two photographs showing it in wear (and I don't include the 'Beadle-Hartmann' fake).

I knew the SS officer responsible for having the 'SS Map' drafted and he was indignant when I suggested to him that the patches shown were the product of fantasy. For my part, I don't doubt that many, if not most, weren't actually issued, but they were certainly authorised and, in some cases, manufactured.

To turn the tables slightly, do you have any evidence to suggest that the many US veterans' stories of bringing home unissued insignia from Dachau are false?

Many thanks,

Baz





Robin Lumsden wrote:

And do you think Himmler would ever have contemplated approving a patch bearing the SA rune? I don't think so, yet this patch and others even more fanciful form part of the 'Dachau' range. And I wouldn't rely too heavily on the SS 1945 map - look at the other anomalies there.

[Chris_Werner]

As we travel further and further from the actual Vets who brought these items back, it becomes critical for us to form a sort of conventional wisdom regarding the authenticity of the items we collect.
I have heard time and time again that the best way knowledge can be gained is by handling many known originals. Unfortunately, not all of us have access to world class SS cloth collections.
As such, collecting books and the Forums, with their collective wisdom, are the best substitutes. If you can't get that cloth piece out of Uncle Rand's dufflebag in the attic, then purchasing from reputable dealers and collectors is the only way to go.
I would rather pay extra and purchase from a reputable dealer, then buy "bargains" of questionable originality. I know that dealers make mistakes, but when I buy a piece from someone like Bill shea or Bob Hritz, I know that they stand behind it and value their reputations within the collecting community.
I also stay away from variants, as I don't feel comfortable or experienced enough to tell the difference. This is why I stay away from the non-germanic Tabs, and atypically constructed runes. They may be original, but the comfort level is not there. Stuff I purchase that I am dubious or doubtful about gets stuffed in the back of the collection, or eventually traded away. Again, it could be real, but that nagging doubt Robin described keeps me from enjoying the piece.
Ultimately, we have to be satisfied and comfortable with what we purchase. Each person has to decide what satisfies their comfort level, and evaluate each piece against their personal standards. We all make mistakes, but they can be kept to a minimum with knowedge and experience.

[Perry Floyd]

"To turn the tables slightly, do you have any evidence to suggest that the many US veterans' stories of bringing home unissued insignia from Dachau are false?"




I agree, there are just too many 45th and 42nd veterans that have the same stories and brought back the same items to dismiss their existance. I would take that even over a lack of period photographic evidence. There's just to many veterans that have the same story and same items to dismiss as fantasy or a post war hoax..