Replies with explinations or not poll

[Gary Wood]

I was not actually going to get involved in this thread but!

Its up to each individual how he reply's to a question asked by someone else, after all by asking a question you are soliciting help from other members because YOU do not know, no one and i do mean no one has to answer the question you have asked.

If you are not happy with one liners like "its original" or "its fake" then go out and find out for yourself why it is one or the other.

For those asking the questions you should be thankful that others take the time to reply to your question. Many members offer insight in there own way to there chosen field of interest and I am certainly thankful of there contribution in what ever way they choose.


i also disagree that one liners offer no info, no replies to a question offer no info.

[N.C. Wyeth]

Bob Hritz,

I feel that I may owe a personal apology to you here. I now recognize that your post was only meant in comical jest, and not particularly a snyde remark - I was out of line. The intent in my post was not to be insultive, only to point out that the times truly have evolved in how our world gathers it's knowledge - regardless of whether we think this new way is best or not. I recognize and respect all of the hard work and the amount of contribution you make to the community of collecting. Thank you. And once again, I apologize if you feel that I insulted you personally.

In addition, my point about the use of a Forum being the most prominent means through which the "entire world" will choose to gather it's knowledge may not have been altogether correct (thanks to the "other Brad" for pointing this out! ), but I'm sure we could all agree that the electronic wonder of the "Internet" has already become, or is progressively becoming, the selected means through which the entire world is utilizing to exchange information and ideas. In the sense of clarification, this Forum is only a small branch of that electronic wonder . . .

I guess the point I learned in coming here today, is that we really don't owe each other anything - not even the common courtesy of a simple explanation behind our opinion when asked . . . this must be what it means to be a part of today's "collecting community". Yes, we should be grateful for getting any form of reply and help that we do from others.

Brad

[Rene Chavez]

Here is my small contribution to this thread and I’ll try to keep it short and sweet because of my web site relating to Foreign Volunteer and Axis Awards and Postal History I get literally dozens or so e-mails a day either asking me for advice or opinions and I try to give the collector a better response explanation when I have the time rather then a simple thumbs up or down and if I cannot provide an answer I redirect them to the right web site.
Fortunately for me much of my knowledge and research are found from mentors, books and forums such as here where normally 99% of the time I will find the information that I’m looking for but because of the better response explanations found on these forum thread and that is why I voted for "Better Response."
So my advice to new collectors before asking opinions is to do research the forums and you will find the answers and if not be specific.
In addition, keep in mind that there are items that require a better explanation such in the case of headgear and tunics because of the various factors involve in determining if the item is original or reproduction and a simple one liner will not work anyway just my 2 cents worth.

Rene Chavez
http://axis101.bizland.com

[John Pic]

JR yes that is the tunic I was going to sell to buy another uniform but the other uniform was no longer available by the time the buyer for mine was ready to pay. I have several buyers waiting in the wings but not unless I can replace it with something as interesting.

I see a huge majority prefer explanations and B.N.Singer I just wouldnt mind you expanding a little more on wrappers and I think it could be done without revealing too much info. Its easy to say why something is fake without saying where the problem needs to be fixed on the fake to make it even harder to detect.

Judging by what I read people seem to take a mans opinion and read into it that he is demanding something and expects people to obey..that is not the case nobody said "You owe it to us to explain" B.N. Singer said if a poll was taken that showed people wanted better explanations that he would rethink his position so I did a poll. Its very odd how these things always turn into a war of words between the people who think they know everything and own the hobby and the people who are less well known but like to participate in forums and ask questions and learn. Its almost like a core group doesnt really want people to know too much.

My wifes course she is studying requires that students seek opinion from others in a forum setting on line and share views..it is a required modem in her program so forums are for and will be used for education..its the future.

[bwanek1]

I see a huge majority prefer explanations....

The poll is inherently flawed in the nature of the question. Given the choice between more or less information in the answer, if you're the one asking the question, who wouldn't want more?! It goes without saying. The issue is not whether people want more or less information in an answer. The issue is whether a simple answer is adequate to serve the purpose of the question. In the vast majority of cases, I see people who simply want an answer to the "is it real?" question. Sure, given the choice, they would probably prefer more information in the response they are given, but, for their purpose, the simple answer is probably more than adequate.

It is a small minority of threads which warrant in-depth discussion and those generally receive it. I eagerly participate in those exchanges when I have something of value to add, but, I, for one, don't have the time to spend hours writing a thesis on metal cap insignia every time someone posts another moustache skull. That information exists in this forum ten times over already.

Like I said, I enjoy sharing what I know with others and, for those who truly want to learn, I am more than happy to offer in-depth explanations in threads or in private correspondence. However, some, are just too lazy to search and study the old threads and want to be spoon-fed an education (instant gratification). I have no time for that.

My wifes course she is studying requires that students seek opinion from others in a forum setting on line and share views..it is a required modem in her program so forums are for and will be used for education..its the future.

The free exchange of ideas in open discussion has been a fundamental element of higher education for many decades. The only difference is that now often occurs in an on-line forum in addition to a traditional classroom setting. However, do not mistake that exchange of ideas among peers as a substitute for research. Authoritative works written by esteemed, credentialed subject matter experts, based on scholarly work, will always remain the basis of true research. Dialog among students is interesting and thought-provoking; it is not, nor will it ever be, "research," regardless of the medium. When it is time for your wife to do research or to study as part of her course work, it may be online, but she will not be on a forum!

[John Pic]

Good points Brad. I think there is a big difference between the posting an SS marked CocaCola bottle and asking "is this real and how much is it worth?" and a fairly experienced person posting a tunic that comes within stitches of the real thing and only a few know how to see those stitches.

Personally I ignore 99% of the "is this real and whats it worth" threads dealing with "SS cocacola bottles" off of ebay I do glance at them because on occaision its a fellow collector who specializes in another area and just happened to find something he would like info on.

Regarding my wifes class forums they are done to discuss various topics being researched and to seek input from others..its not the sole method but it is included and that was my point.

Hard Work= Cutting 10-20 yellow pines with a chainsaw and ax on a steep slope in the summer is hard work...looking a German stuff for a hobby is fun.

[Richard P]

Bob Hritz,

Thanks for the Dave Delich story, you have covered quite a bit of ground with an illustration that should suffice from beginner to advanced collectors. Thanks for taking the time to write and share and I appreciate your sense of humor with easy to understand pictorial lesson.

I think my "BIG BEEF" with the one line answers is those few words can taint another mans property for many years to come, thanks to those that store photos and details (not necessarily a bad thing). I'm speaking about the more complicated items like headgear, uniforms, and advanced insignia that often require a hands on inspection for a truly accurate, truly honest assessment. This does not include the obvious and well known fakes. Digital photos can be deceptive. There are times however when definite conclusions can be drawn from digital photos.


My "BIG BEEF" anonymous example is that there was a uniform posted on one of the forums and dismissed with great prejudice. This uniform was tainted by persons who offered no explanation, no discussion, but all opined that it was indeed bad. Thats fine for those of us that don't have to take their word and have no plan to ever sell. Thats probably O.K. for those whose 10K investment is a mere drop in the bucket and can absorb the loss. Fortunately the investment was only 3K for this particular uniform and the buyer has been offered well over 15K by very advanced collectors and dealers.

Its not fine for the collector who saved all year for his 10K big buy of the year and did his homework, only to have his item rendered worthless by persons who have not seen it in hand, have nothing invested except the time it takes to type a few words. They have just guaranteed that those that believe their opinions will never buy or trade for that uniform and will shoot it down if it's ever offered for sale anywhere in the world, because they happened to save the photos of that particular fake. This is also why many will no longer post photos of their rare or expensive items.

The only positive to this is that it leaves a lot of great stuff out there for those that don't rely on the forum moderators, their experts, and other members opinions.

Richard P

[Bob Hritz]

Bob Hritz,



My "BIG BEEF" anonymous example is that there was a uniform posted on one of the forums and dismissed with great prejudice. This uniform was tainted by persons who offered no explanation, no discussion, but all opined that it was indeed bad. Thats fine for those of us that don't have to take their word and have no plan to ever sell. Thats probably O.K. for those whose 10K investment is a mere drop in the bucket and can absorb the loss. Fortunately the investment was only 3K for this particular uniform and the buyer has been offered well over 15K by very advanced collectors and dealers.

Its not fine for the collector who saved all year for his 10K big buy of the year and did his homework, only to have his item rendered worthless by persons who have not seen it in hand, have nothing invested except the time it takes to type a few words. They have just guaranteed that those that believe their opinions will never buy or trade for that uniform and will shoot it down if it's ever offered for sale anywhere in the world, because they happened to save the photos of that particular fake. This is also why many will no longer post photos of their rare or expensive items.

Richard P

Hello richard,

You have made very valid points. I normally do not participate in uniform discussions, other than comment on the insignia. I do not recall the tunic of which you speak, but can understand the angst of the owner.

The most important thing to remember is WHO is making the comments. There are many who like to see their words, in print, and cannot offer any basis for expertise. Sitting on forums,all day, is not enough to learn what is original and what is fake. It is, however a valuable tool to see both original and fake items, and to use these comparisons for real-life examination of items in question.

I agree that most, including myself, have given up on posting many tunics and hats. It is not the unwillingness to share information, but the waste of time when those who have no expertise will attack the item (or use the item to attack the owner, which is common here). It is sad that common sense is so sorely lacking that many don't understand that much more is learned when listening and watching, than when commenting on something with no basis for the comment.

Bob Hritz

[kirk]

Replies

I recently started posting ,on this forum ,in the last couple months or so.I am a long time collector ,of antiques,coins, sports memorabilia,and militaria.I started collecting coins and baseball cards in the 1950's.I got into antiques and militaria in the 1980's.I would like to take this opportunity, to thank everyone ,on this forum, for the opinions and information,you have given me.I have learned more in the last couple months ,than I have in the last ten years.Most people have been very kind and helpfull.I feel so energized about our hobby , that I am starting to buy items again.One person ,I really want to thank, is Bob Hritz.Bob is a very knowledgable ,and honest man,that has taught me plenty.When I post items for discussion,I am very happy for any replies ,pro or con,long or short.My postings, have helped me learn ,how to tell,what in my collection is good, and what is not.My large collection of referance books ,in them selves, have not allways made me feel confident ,in the originaltly, of some of my pieces.Thanks again, to all of you ,for helping me get interisted, in this great hobby again.I just need to make up my mind, what the heck I really want to continue to collect,{cloth headgear,daggers,cloth insignia,or badges].Thanks again,Kirk

[stonemint]

I am biased, but we really don't have this problem on the headgear forum...we probably are too extreme in our explanations. Pinned threads also help cut-down on having to repeat yourself.

[Leroy]

There are so many who post opinions in good faith, but who really only have "surface" knowledge of what they are talking about. I learned my lesson here a long time ago, when I posted an opinion about an SS field cap when I really shouldn't have. I was (and rightly so) jumped on by those who knew more than me in that field. It was a valuable learning experience. There are only a few areas that I have intently studied over the many years that I have been in this hobby and I now try to confine my posts to those areas (unless to ask a question in order to learn). Maybe the trick to posting opinions is never to do so in a "kneejerk" fashion.
Leroy

[jacquesf]

A yes or no answer as to originality when it comes from a collector known to be very knowlegdeable in that field, is more important than ten speculative or opiniated posts. I have no problem with "I can entertain a doubt " posts as they cut to the hart of the question. In the end one has to take all the information and info providers and use that to make an informed decision and yes some research helps as well. I have found that in a lot of cases that people are unhappy with one line responses, it is the direct result of them not wanting to hear their item is not good. Jacques

[Richard P]

My buddy Jacques,

I would have no objection to " I could entertain a doubt" if the person posting the doubt was infallible. Unfortunately he is not and I have seen a number of very expensive items have doubts cast about them and the doubter turns out to be wrong. What if no one catches the error and a genuine piece is added to the poop list? I do not think its worth the risk. If you have such a strong opinion then you should be able to make a case. in courtrooms you can't just declare the guy "guilty", you have to prove it. Its way too easy to wave your thumb down when its not your head being cut off.

Any collector worth his salt will tell you he screws up just like everyone else...still! I agree, no one likes to hear they just blew 10K. However...I don't think they want to return it either if it is genuine and actually worth every penny or more.

Richard P

[John Pic]

Richard that is exactly why I think its an important question to ask. There are a few people on the forums that when they start posting get an imediate round of "atta boys" for being the one person "who knows his stuff if anyone does". Thus they are set up by a circle of friends to be the last word on certain items.
So if someone knows so much and all thier friends think so then prove it to everyone else before you start putting down what others have with one line meaningless opinion.
The other thing about this is when thier knowledge does get questioned in a thread an array of buddies chimes in to support rather than discuss the item with lines like " so and so has been around for years I would trust his opinion on anything" " young collectors dont want to learn anything" " if you dont accept what he says you must not have been collecting long" then the thread gets thrown off coarse and clouded and those intimidated by this type of thing suddenly believe so and so is a super expert and knows it all..but the items importance and value is lost in the contraversy.
I hate to point it out again but the famous Panzer Wrap thread was an example of this type of nonsense. No one wanted to openly say who put it together even though a few knew...and even if he may not think so Mr. Singer was a victim in this since he was the original owner.. I just dont get the part about protecting the maker who first sold it..and a year later when I mention California in a thread I get pounced on.

[Johnny R]

The bottom line to me is that in most cases from photos it is hard to tell yay or nay and most the time the responses as they become more and more entrenched reflect more of the postees psychological template/self-esteem issues than anything related to the originality of an item.

Many times items I know are bring backs etc. have been pooh poohed and likewise stuff I know personally was put together (I didn't do it) is lauded as real.

I don't post "yes or no" unless I know for sure. I think the less definitive answers are acceptable and productive. That said I think posting technical answers to problems with fake construction etc. is not a good idea. We know we get "fished" and people post items for "soundings" on fakes. If someone is trusted PM them with the detailed answers IMO.