Replies with explinations or not poll

[jacquesf]

Richard, I see the one line response as the first check in a serious of checks of and balances. It raises the awareness and the need to be wide awake and make sure that back up information is sourced to validate my ultimate decision.
I don't have a problem if collector provides limited information. What do get me uptight is when a collector/ author uses his name, knowledge and experience to defraud and belittle others. Someone once referred to it as a Collectors God complex. Jacques.

My buddy Jacques,

I would have no objection to " I could entertain a doubt" if the person posting the doubt was infallible. Unfortunately he is not and I have seen a number of very expensive items have doubts cast about them and the doubter turns out to be wrong. What if no one catches the error and a genuine piece is added to the poop list? I do not think its worth the risk. If you have such a strong opinion then you should be able to make a case. in courtrooms you can't just declare the guy "guilty", you have to prove it. Its way too easy to wave your thumb down when its not your head being cut off.

Any collector worth his salt will tell you he screws up just like everyone else...still! I agree, no one likes to hear they just blew 10K. However...I don't think they want to return it either if it is genuine and actually worth every penny or more.

Richard P

[DonC]

Here's another angle: I think almost everyone would prefer detailed answers, but it bothers me when you see someone post their item, it gets trashed and/or there are questions about it, and then the guy gets defensive and says things like "were you there in 1945? Can you prove that the eagle/tab/board was not originally sewn like this? How do you know a three-pocket sky blue tunic was not standard issue for Nebelwerfer crews in the eastern Crimea in August 1942?" That's plain silly, and I can see why some on the Forum don't want to soil their hands with that kind of stuff, plus, it just ruins the thread, which descends into circular arguments of "I know more than you do", etc.

I also can't stand it when guys don't get the answer they want and immediately pull the pics. That's just childish behavior, for the most part. The forum should be about learning, and if you have a thin skin, I wouldn't exhibit it by pulling your posts.

There's definitely two sides to the issue - I think the best suggestion so far has been to ask for further input in a PM or email when someone gives a one-liner reply, (which should be a red flag all it's own). I have done this a few times and in all instances folks were very forthcoming and detaile din their analysis. I am a unifoirm geek, not a badge geek, but I would imagine it would work the same.

Just my .02 € (almost four cents by now...)

Don

[billmunny]

my humble 2 cents..

Thanks, Bob (Hritz) for sharing the Dave Delich story and for the kind help you've offered me and others in the past.

I can tell you from the heart, I first began collecting about five or six years ago, and later found out, I got seriously burned. Like most of us, I don't make a lot, so the sting was that much sharper because I was not only betrayed by some I trusted, but lost some serious cash as well. I was ready to walk away from the hobby and just stick to what I had been doing since I was a wee kid, reading books, speaking with vets and visiting museums.

The Forum kept me engaged, and folks like Bob Hritz, Gary Wood, John P. in Portland, Willi Schumacher, Bob Wirtz and others helped me learn and then learn and then learn more, and then finally spend my cash on an item here and there.

So, this is just a big thank you to those who've remained engaged. I truly appreciate the help and advice. Is the Forum perfect, no. Are some rude, some shady, and some just plain old crooks, yup.

But the gentlemen mentioned above and so many others are great guys. I've met some, and others I only "know" on-line, but I seriously enjoy our hobby, whether I own something or not, because of the helpful generosity of the "good guys" in our hobby. I'm happy to learn, and grateful to those who share their knowledge and collections.

[hs132]

Richard that is exactly why I think its an important question to ask. There are a few people on the forums that when they start posting get an imediate round of "atta boys" for being the one person "who knows his stuff if anyone does". Thus they are set up by a circle of friends to be the last word on certain items.
So if someone knows so much and all thier friends think so then prove it to everyone else before you start putting down what others have with one line meaningless opinion.
The other thing about this is when thier knowledge does get questioned in a thread an array of buddies chimes in to support rather than discuss the item with lines like " so and so has been around for years I would trust his opinion on anything" " young collectors dont want to learn anything" " if you dont accept what he says you must not have been collecting long" then the thread gets thrown off coarse and clouded and those intimidated by this type of thing suddenly believe so and so is a super expert and knows it all..but the items importance and value is lost in the contraversy.
I hate to point it out again but the famous Panzer Wrap thread was an example of this type of nonsense. No one wanted to openly say who put it together even though a few knew...and even if he may not think so Mr. Singer was a victim in this since he was the original owner.. I just dont get the part about protecting the maker who first sold it..and a year later when I mention California in a thread I get pounced on.

Flag on the play, unsportsman like conduct penalty. Derailing your own thread. Of the 100 or so responders on the "panzer thread" you are still the only one whining and complaining endlessly. You profess a law enforcement background. Do you in any way understand the meaning of "libel, slander and deflamation" lawsuits etc.? I suggest you do some legal research. You are in error as B. Singer was not the ORIGIONAL owner, what part did you miss out on? All the people directly involved in the wrapper episode including moderators were informed of all names, places(Arizona, not Ca.) immediately. You were not part of that group.There were certain legal channels being explored and EVERYONE felt your involvement would most likely ruin everything. That being said you are now aware of the origional source, you know who he is and the company he runs. I suggest you start a thread here and reveal his name and all the knowledge you have something along the lines of "JohnPicinisco finally knows all". You can actually approach him at the upcoming LA show and get a direct "person to person, face to face" interrogation. Set the time clock back 2 minutes, move the ball half the distance to the goal line, 1st in 10. Bill bourque

[John Pic]

Actually I do not to this day know who he is or was,just that he was from California and in the Panzer wrap thread B. N. Singer admtted that the wrap once belonged to him...and he is an "expert" according to many on Panzer wraps and gives short one sentence phrases about his doubts on other peoples things.Thats what the poll is about if you want to discuss the faking of the wrap please feel free to email me.

[TonyS]

Of the 100 or so responders on the "panzer thread" you are still the only one whining and complaining endlessly.

Boy that Panzer Wrap is like a turd that won't flush - it's still annoying people everytime it pops to the surface.


And for everyone that missed it........

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=panzer+wrap

[Richard P]

Tony S.

Thank you for that very effective visual image. I have forgotten what subject we are even on now and can only see a turd circling and circling. Ha ha ha, just kidding, I am glad you are back posting and I've been meaning to tell you so. I re-visited that thread one day and an hour later I came up for air...a must read for all who are voting on this poll...if they have the time.

Richard P.

[John Pic]

I had to go to work and came back to see that only 11 people dont like the idea of adding a little more info to a posting. I do admit I agree with some that in some cases the info shouldnt give away exact details, but in many areas such as Bullion eagles and runic tabs the expertise in making them correct to form has already occurred long ago so keeping secrets on them is IMO null and void.

I just want to add since my character has been attacked by someone who has never met me or talked to me.

I didnt start the Panzer wrap thread nor was it my idea to start it. Anything offered for sale today can be posted publicly and the results of that could at times ferret out some not so nice truths about the hobby. It happens in other forums here as well that I dont even post on..welcome to "the commons" as they say. I wont apologize for being demanding of the truth. Like a few who posted in that thread always lecture the masses here, if you get burned just eat it as a lesson learned. It wasnt until after it was closed that I learned why I received so many puzzling PMs from people trying to explain the wrap to me. You have no right to blame me.If you want to sue me for libel and slander youre welcome to try.

I guess Kevin is my only friend now since "everybody" was upset with me.

[jacquesf]

John, I still you. Jacques ps, with regard to the wrapper, unbelievable smoke and mirrors.

I had to go to work and came back to see that only 11 people dont like the idea of adding a little more info to a posting. I do admit I agree with some that in some cases the info shouldnt give away exact details, but in many areas such as Bullion eagles and runic tabs the expertise in making them correct to form has already occurred long ago so keeping secrets on them is IMO null and void.

I just want to add since my character has been attacked by someone who has never met me or talked to me.

I didnt start the Panzer wrap thread nor was it my idea to start it. Anything offered for sale today can be posted publicly and the results of that could at times ferret out some not so nice truths about the hobby. It happens in other forums here as well that I dont even post on..welcome to "the commons" as they say. I wont apologize for being demanding of the truth. Like a few who posted in that thread always lecture the masses here, if you get burned just eat it as a lesson learned. It wasnt until after it was closed that I learned why I received so many puzzling PMs from people trying to explain the wrap to me. You have no right to blame me.If you want to sue me for libel and slander youre welcome to try.

I guess Kevin is my only friend now since "everybody" was upset with me.

[hs132]

I had to go to work and came back to see that only 11 people dont like the idea of adding a little more info to a posting. I do admit I agree with some that in some cases the info shouldnt give away exact details, but in many areas such as Bullion eagles and runic tabs the expertise in making them correct to form has already occurred long ago so keeping secrets on them is IMO null and void.

I just want to add since my character has been attacked by someone who has never met me or talked to me.

I didnt start the Panzer wrap thread nor was it my idea to start it. Anything offered for sale today can be posted publicly and the results of that could at times ferret out some not so nice truths about the hobby. It happens in other forums here as well that I dont even post on..welcome to "the commons" as they say. I wont apologize for being demanding of the truth. Like a few who posted in that thread always lecture the masses here, if you get burned just eat it as a lesson learned. It wasnt until after it was closed that I learned why I received so many puzzling PMs from people trying to explain the wrap to me. You have no right to blame me.If you want to sue me for libel and slander youre welcome to try.

I guess Kevin is my only friend now since "everybody" was upset with me.

Flag on the play. Confusion on the field. I was unwilling to reveal names publically on the "panzer thread" because I was unwilling to risk "libel, slander and deflamation" by giving out that information on a public format. I did my job, exposed a put together wrapper based on my 28 year old photos. And so ends my involvement there-after. Resume play, neutral zone infraction. Bill Bourque

[John Pic]

You did Bill,cant argue that.Shall we parlay with the harsh exchanges?

Jacques...Im happy someone does..other than Kevin.Its a rough and rugged world.

[bwanek1]

Jacques...Im happy someone does..other than Kevin.Its a rough and rugged world.

I still love you too, John. You have been very helpful to me personally on several occasions and I remain grateful.

Brad

[CWP]

My concern is with phrases like "Not for my collection" or "I could entertain a doubt." What do those phrases really mean? That could mean anything, for instance:

I am nearly sure it is fake
I think it is probably fake
It might be fake
I haven't seen one like it before and that makes me suspicious
It's not like the one I got from a veteran
Better pictures would be needed to make a determination
I don't like the dealer who is selling this... etc. etc.

I can live with a one-line reply if it is someone's honest opinion on an item. But surely it seems reasonable to hope for some level of explanation, rather than a vague "catch phrase" that could mean nearly anything. I will use one-line replies at times if I am confident that an item is fake or original, or if I am suspicious for some reason. I feel that is better at least than a vaguely negative blanket response.

[John Pic]

What I eventually learned was that many collectors obtained an example of an item from a Veteran or a beloved Dealer/old friend..then in thier mind that item is what all similar items should look like and be made like,so they base thier opinion on this. Often they are willing to accept other items with slight differences but only in the case that the item is owned by someone they have either kown for years or are close friends with. There is no room in thier minds for someone who they dont know to have something in thier collection that is slightly different than thiers or that was obtained differently than they did.This especially started to get more apparent when the internet arrived and some items became more readily available.
Ive seen where some write posts saying that buying certain items from Dealer sites on the internet is lazy not like the old Hotel buy days in thier lives and that many of the items are high end fake or put together etc.
Then the very same people cant resist posting the same type of items they warn people about that they themselves bought from online Dealers.

Ive also seen where an item gets bashed on a forum and then when it changes hands its suddenly a great piece.

[90th Light]

The first thing I would like to add to this thread, is that in today's post modern technological economies, we are all trying to beat time by going faster. The result is that we are not doing things as well or as throughly as we use to do them. Every thing is becoming a quick fix 24/7

Now people say, "go and do the research" This then begs the question what is research and who should do it ??? The person who asks the question or the person who answers it ???

The problem here is two fold,

1/ Any member can answer a question on this forum and have all rights and no responsibility. I mean where is the risk, someone puts up an item, I look at it and quickly say good or bad. Now it does not really matter if what I have told this person is correct or not. What happens to me ??? Nothing really, not my item, not my problem, not my money. Does not really matter at all if it is something which really did come from WW2 ,WW1 or some other part of history. If it does not fit into my realm of experience or tolerance levels then I declare it bad. There is no professional risk to me. I err on the side of caution and it makes me look like I know what I am doing. This is so easy you do not even have to do any research yourself before you give an answer. Just look and hit the button.

2/ The challenge in doing research is that we have gone from a world where there was not enough information to a world where there is too much. It is very easy today when you start to get into something to suffer "paralysis by analysis" There is just too much to take in in some cases and people suffer information over-load. To survive this you have to develop filters. One such excellent filter is the forum. It is fast and it captures a target sample of like- minded people who are interested and might just have the time. Time is the key, the scarcest most irrecoverable of all resources. The sad thing is that we are now in a world where we will feel we have less and less time to get it done and more and more to get done. Remember those good old days before the internet when it was a real find to meet someone who also collected Militaria and could understand your excitement about the stuff. Now we all take it for granted because all we have to do is just log on and we forget sometimes what it would be like if we did not have the forum.

Remember also that people learn different ways, some read books, some take notes, some tell stories, some just like to look on and others scan the internet and belong. Everyone is different and what one person does naturally and with ease, another can find difficulty in and take a very long time. Demanding that someone does the research on basic items is limited because not everybody has a reading age let alone the ability to be able to cope with or comprehend a lot of written text. These people learn by asking others and as such are then limited to what they are told.

Personally I like to do my own research. I note what I am told and I learn but I also like to get an opinion from more than one quarter. This forum is but a quarter ( a very good one but still only one and four quarters make a whole.) I double check things I am told with other collectors / experts who are not on the forum. Amazing what they say sometimes. The forum is collecting by consensus and sometimes you have to have the ability to come to a conclusion by yourself and make your own mind up. This involves a hands on inspection, take note of manufacturer and period foot-prints and just sometimes owning something for a period of time while you build up knowledge and collect your observations. Not all items can be worked out in a 48 hour period, in many cases it can take weeks, months and even years to come to a conclusion. Depends on the item in question.

I will sign off now and let others make a comment but as one parting shot, may I please say that one of the biggest crimes in this hobby is the collectors who get things from veterans and do not bother to document every detail of where it was obtained, when and why. At the end of the day this will be all we will have to fall back on once the old soldiers and their families have faded away. This lack of primary research becomes even more tragic when such collectors keep such knowledge of these items in a tight inner circle for fear that the fakers will find out.

We had a factory here in New Zealand called "the real McCoy" owned and run by a Japanese concern which specialised in exact replica WW2 American fight jackets. What they did to get things right was to buy originals, take them apart bit by bit and work out exactly how it was made. How does any closed mouth inner circle defend against that ?

"If you want to control a tiger then first find one and put it in a cage but if you want your community to avoid the tiger then tell them were & how they stalk"

If you have stuck with reading this so far then I thank you,

Chris