Replies with explinations or not poll

[John Pic]

What is the difference between reading from a book or on the internet...the internet is an outlet for multiple opinions designed to offer access to valuable information look at Googles stocks today.

Once upon a time we were not "lazy" and hunted our own meat and plowed our own land but supermarkets came along because the enterprising business men like the ones who tout high collector prices all the time on the forums now we have a new media to halp educate. If you get tired of helping lay off the computer for a while and dont offer replies. Books dont supply all the answers did anyone here learn it all from books?

[Bob Hritz]

The problem with long, drawn out explanations is that you put the time and effort into a good explanation, showing examples of originals, etc. and that is fine... then a short time later somebody else comes up with another of the same item and wants the same explanation. People just think this Internet is so great because they can access information so easily; they don't have to do their own research. If you're into this as a hobby, you should be learning as much as you can about it and be happy in the learning. Being force fed all the knowledge may be good for beginners, but the old guys get tired of hashing over the same stuff because people won't use the SEARCH function and do their own research. How many threads per week are started on this forum on METAL HEADGEAR INSIGNIA? We must have a thread (or 2 or 15) on every eagle and skull manufactured during the war by various manufacturers, and even more on the fakes. Why cannot people use the SEARCH function and do their own homework instead of starting another thread on a duplicate piece of insignia?

Bob

Perhaps it is because we live in an instant gratification world where no one wants to do any work and demands that others provide for them. It is just another version of the welfare mentality.

Or perhaps, it tiring to be slammed because someone knows something and has built a fine collection, while those who have failed are angry and bitter.

Bob Hritz

ps: You have to use your head and know your SH!T from SHINOLA

[Bobwirtz]

I was on another forum once, not a militaria one, and I actually had high school and college students who wanted me to do their term papers and homework for them... and they thought that this was their right or something because they were on the Internet and visiting this particular website.

You're right Bob (Hritz), people don't want to work for anything anymore, not even their hobbies. The books and Internet are but one medium... the real learning is when you get authentic items in your hands and are able to study and have knowledgable collectors point out what is right on them. Once you learn what is right, then you'll know what is not.

JPIC: I hope you're not encouraging members here to drop off of the forum or not provide their opinion, even if just a one-liner.

Bob (Wirtz)

[SJP]

Well said (Bob H.)
__________________________________________________ _____________
Cheers Steve

[Robert H]

all Bobs and Robs have the same view

[N.C. Wyeth]

Perhaps it is because we live in an instant gratification world where no one wants to do any work and demands that others provide for them. It is just another version of the welfare mentality.

Or perhaps, it tiring to be slammed because someone knows something and has built a fine collection, while those who have failed are angry and bitter.

Bob Hritz

ps: You have to use your head and know your SH!T from SHINOLA

This is the kind of response that ruins the enjoyment of collecting for all - here we have what many would tout as being one of the most prominent and respectable "elderly" members of collecting authority, struggling with the changing of times (no, it seems that this is no longer an ideal still reserved for all who feel the 1960's were the last great movement of progression - think about it, man!), and as a result of that struggle, is acting out in colorful rebellion in hope of achieving collective communal support of his very own personal protest to new ideas that he is not comfortable with embracing . . . Not the kind of venerably experienced response that we should expect from a veteran street-level collector I would say.

Times have changed in the way the world gathers information - we must learn to accept that. The trouble I have I have come to find with the "elder" generations that come on-line to a Forum to participate, is that they have so much trouble getting past the idea that the information world has, or for some still is, changing from what they believe should still be a traditional method of acquiring information, and should continue being the most prominent way to do so - books. Books are fantastic, and I too still buy many and cherish every one, but I also recognize that their time in this day-and-age are limited. See what happens in five years - mark my words. It's time the old-timers give up the excuse that we all need to buy books and do our own "homework", and start doing what they came here in the first place to do - participate in a digitally-oriented on-line forum established for offering all collectors the absolute best format of reference and research media in TODAY'S WORLD.

I am still astounded that some member here has not yet forgone the task of acquiring permission from the proper authorities and initiated the effort of digitalizing all of these remarkably famous books that we all enjoy referring to constantly, and placing them on-line for sale in a web-based format for sharing. This will be the future of all our reference material, I'm sure, and I'm extremely surprised that future has not yet come to pass. This is already being done with so many other collections of literature - it's bound to happen with all of our favorite books as well. If the Library of Congress can digitalize books for on-line use, what will keep our favorites from being done as well some day?

It's time everyone starts to recognize that this Forum is the new level of media with which the world will forever collect it's data and acquire it's knowledge. It will be up to us to make sure that it works the way it was intended - if we give up on the format, and hide in our shell to say that all the younger generations should "do their own research and buy some books", we'll be perpetually defeating our own purpose for coming here in the first place - educating the ignorant that come here to learn. Today it is expected of all media to be instantaneous - just ask your local Police Department how fast it takes do a criminal background check on someone! Something to think about when you come here to make your snyde remarks about instant gratification . . .

Brad

P.S. And Bob, don't take this personal - we're all becoming guilty of this attitude - including me. I don't know you personally, but I still have nothing less than reverant respect for all that you have brought to the enjoyment of collecting TR memorabilia. I just feel that it would be better for all if I brought up this point for the betterment of the long and enduring future generations of respectful collecting.

[Robert H]

And it is not all about books and not about the digital world incl. the www, and again thanks it is not all about this and it will never be for the real collector.

No, it is about the reality in life and about friends and shows and all these storys about collecting that you hear time by time and not only about a forum or the addicted www. life some people have these days.

Other people have also to understand that some poeple are getting besides the forum tons of emails and PM's and even phone calls starting at 5am with questions about this or that. So it is not only about it what is shown here on a forum and it will never be.

[John Pic]

Robert you are exactly right which is why I posted the poll because I get many many emails asking for help with uniforms and insignias and always a kind word about my posts and how people are not satisfied with just one word/sentence answers on forums. So as you see the percentage who prefer this is high.

Bob when your grand kids go to college and spend all day and night doing a majority of thier research on a computer will you chastise them for being Lazy? My wife is in school right now and 90% of her work has to be done using a computer for research. It has nothing to do with instant gratification as I said before I could find no book discussing the fine points of the M1/70 marked Gold HJ pins so I used the forum and there it was.
Beavers books offer no insight into determining real from fake uniforms just glorious pictures of unifroms belonging to well known collectors some of which are post war restorations and this isnt even mentioned. A person can buy and own all the items they want and still be a failure, my success is measured by the people who have come to seek out advice or assistance and my being free with that information.. a persons goal may be to find one thing and if thats done thier efforts are a success.
I like Jesus' Idea of success as opposed to the one of mass accumulation.This little display makes me very happy,it doesnt take three warehouses of everything to accomplish that satisfaction.

[JR.]

Is that not the 17 grand unit that was in the classifieds ??? Right up there with the big boys............

[bwanek1]

It's time everyone starts to recognize that this Forum is the new level of media with which the world will forever collect it's data and acquire it's knowledge.

If forums, constitute, "the new level of media with which the world will forever collect it's data and acquire it's knowledge" we are all doomed. The internet will be the medium, but forums have no criteria which establish the experience or credentials of those providing that "knowledge." Anyone can sign up and start offering their expertise, regardless how limited, to the world. In many cases, we see the ignorant or poorly informed offering incorrect information or mere conjecture as fact. If the world is going to rely on random collections of people with similar interests, but no established authority, as its repositories of knowledge, it will be the blind leading the blind in many cases.

It will be up to us to make sure that it works the way it was intended - if we give up on the format, and hide in our shell to say that all the younger generations should "do their own research and buy some books", we'll be perpetually defeating our own purpose for coming here in the first place - educating the ignorant that come here to learn. Today it is expected of all media to be instantaneous - just ask your local Police Department how fast it takes do a criminal background check on someone! Something to think about when you come here to make your snyde remarks about instant gratification . . .

Who said theat we all came here to "educat[e] the ignorant?!" Is it a presumed condition of membership here that you spend your time and effort here educating the masses? While I certainly do my best to offer assistance to others here, I did not come here for the sole--or even primary--purpose of becoming an on-line teacher.

By the way, the Police are paid (by our taxes). We have an expectation of service. I have yet to receive a check from this forum for the service I often provide to others here (at the sacrifice of personal time which I could be spending with my family or on some other pleasurable endeavor). It is something I do voluntarily. No one should expect--less demand--any level of service from me for what I offer free of charge!

Bob when your grand kids go to college and spend all day and night doing a majority of thier research on a computer will you chastise them for being Lazy? My wife is in school right now and 90% of her work has to be done using a computer for research. It has nothing to do with instant gratification ...

If my grandkids (decades from being born) do their research online, that is great. In fact, not using the internet, the greatest repository of knowledge the world has ever known, to do any research now would be inconceivable. However, if, rather than doing research online, my grandson went straight to a collection of folks gathered online in some forum and said, "you people sound like you know more about the this topic than I do, you just tell me everything I want to know on the subject so that I don't have to do any real work of my own and I will accept it as fact, regardless of who says it or what they say," I will be greatly disappointed.

It has everything to do with instant gratification. Many [young] forum members won't take the time to search old threads for the great information which resides in this forum already. Instead, they want the answers handed to them. That is why we see the same crappy fake metal cap insignia posted again and again every week asking for others to tell them whether it is real, when the posters could, with very little effort on their own, simply do a search of the maker mark. They have come to expect instant answers. How often do we see people, after a few hours or even minutes without receiving an answer, adding responses to their own posts with indignant comments like, "Well, is no one going to respond?!" They act like someone else owes them an answer right away, as if this is a paid service.

I do personally enjoy helping less experienced collectors learn about my hobby. I willingly offer my time to share what I have learned with those who want to learn and ask for help respectfully (rather than demanding it as if it is their right that I take my personal time to give them answers). For those who are too lazy to use the search function and/or come here expecting or demanding answers, I feel giving them a short thumbs up or down answer is as much as I am willing to offer them voluntarily.

The other Brad

[B. N. Singer]

...which is why I posted the poll because I get many many emails asking for help with uniforms and insignias and always a kind word about my posts and how people are not satisfied with just one word/sentence answers on forums. So as you see the percentage who prefer this is high....

As I feel that I was, to a degree, a catalyst for this poll, (http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=284189&page=2, post #21) it is only proper that I try to clarify my position.

In a time gone buy, I was delighted when those, more knowledgeable, were willing to answer my one (most important) question, is this Original? From there, I took it upon myself to determine why, etc.

I have never felt or been comfortable with expansive posts on this or any other of the WAF forums. My SOLE intent was an attempt (all be it, feeble at best) to "help" members with that one, "most important" question, is this Original? My belief was that these "abbreviated" posts might be of some benefit.

Judging from this poll I can see that the vast majority of members do not seem to be satisfied with having Only this one question addressed. They feel an opinion should offer much more. A result that, I must admit, is not surprising.

Further, never have I intended my comments to be seen as haughty, "high hatted" or impudent in nature; should people have seen them as otherwise, I regret this.

I thank Mr. Pic and the other respondents to this poll for educating me in the errors of my beliefs. A rethinking of my methods is certainly in order.

With respect to All
B. N. Singer

[Dr. Strangelove]

Herr Singer

Herr Singer,your "modus operandi" is sound and your post, short or long, are greatly appreciated. If someone wants more than a "I could entertain doubts" let them ask the next question.

Bwanek, I agree that simple Forum searches will suffice for most hat insignia, but then you would be robbing me of reading the customary and hilarious byplay that occurs between you and some fool that posts a foto of a horrifically cast skull and insist that it is real.

[Bob Hritz]

Back in the 1960s, when just out of High School, I happened to make acquaintance with David Delich, by writing letters. David had offered me a size 62 Waffen-SS model 40 helmet for $50 in trade. I had a cuff title, Hitlerjugend, that he wanted and cuff titles were around $5 to $10 dollars, back then. Dave would have taken the cash difference.

Well, instead of buying the helmet, I asked permission to visit Dave's home. He granted this permission and I went to O'Hare Airport, bought a stand-by ticket for $44, round trip, and called Dave to tell him when I would arrive.

I brought my entire SS cloth collection, tightly packed in a briefcase. When we went through the case, I had ONE original cuff title and FOUR original collar tabs. The rest were fake.

I offered to pay Dave to photo his collection, but he would only accept the cost of film for his color Poloroid Land camera.

I spent 2 days handling and looking at the greatest SS collection in existance, then or now, and Dave kept asking me to explain to him what what wrong with the plethora of mistakes I owned. You see, David Delich is a retired school teacher and he realized that handing out information was useless. The old 'give a man a fish and he is fed for a meal; teach a man to fish and he is fed for a lifetime' parable seemed to Dave to be more productive. David Delich also told me that the greatest success for a teacher is for the teacher to become a master. Now, I am humbled to say, David and I are still in contact and he will often ask for my expertise on something which he feels I may have greater knowledge. This is not humbling to David, but shows that we all can constantly learn.

Oh, the moral, to this epistle, is that I preferred to spend the money on knowledge and never did get that helmet. I left the Hitlerjugend cuff title with David, and we both learned something: acts of kindness are repaid by men of conscience.

Now, I am always glad to help, when requested, but I do not care to be pressured because "the auction is closing soon, so I need an answer NOW', or "what is it, is it real, and how much is it worth". Lastly, there are those who have posted things I would have loved to have. I have PMd a number of members and asked to be considered if the item was to be disposed. I find that my information and interest is, most often, completely ignored other than to use the expertise or information to sell or price to someone else.

I give a lot of my time and expertise to the collecting community, via this site. I find it abhorrant that there are members who cannot make posts without a backhand insult against myself, or other learned members. Perhaps they should sit back and rethink why they are here.

And, I owe nothing to anyone except those who have helped me. My sharing is voluntary and I will not be insulted for this.

Lastly, do many of you wonder why some of the greatest minds in collecting use computers but do not participate on the forums? Think about it!

Bob Hritz

[Dr. Strangelove]

Well Said

"Acts of Kindness are repaid by Men of conscience", excellent !

[JR.]

Great post Bob, as you're always out there helping other collectors in any way that you can. Others are here just to complain about what they don't have, how important they are to the world, and whine about what other people have. Comments made as a general statement, and not pointed at anyone in particular. I think that we could all do with not being so offended all the time, and concentrate on helping someone out in how ever small way that may be.