"Pink" smock or not?

[camouk]

Wow.....light the blue touchpaper and stand back!

[90th Light]

First, let me say that I do not, and never have, collected SS material. I do, however, have an abiding interest (as we all seem to) in the "stories" surrounding controversial items. Having followed this thread, I made it a point, at the recent MAX, to speak with both Johannes Floch and another experienced collector, both of whom I have known for many, many years, about the antecedents of these smocks.

Johannes confirmed that he had, indeed, acquired these smocks many years ago from a contact in Czechosolvakia, that some were in bundles and some loose, and that it was his understanding that they had probably come originally from "the back door" of a film studio. He had nothing whatsoever to do with their manufacture and has always believed that they were real and simply leftover captured material in Russian hands that ended up in the Eastern studio system.

My other conversation was with a longtime collector who does not participate in online discussion forums, although he does occasionally "look in" to see what the people who do participate are talking about. His experience with militaria, to my own personal knowledge, is extensive and I vouch completely for his credibility. This is what he told me:

He has no personal interest in the authenticity of the "earth brown" (a/k/a "pink") SS smocks that first appeared on the market more than thirty years ago. He got one of these smocks, with what he recalls as an pinkish, earth-brown shade in the camo pattern, in 1981. As he recalls, it had the stamp "ЛЕНФИЛЬМ", or LENFILM (the film studio then in Leningrad, now St. Petersburg). When people started saying that these were believed to be copies, he traded it off. Some years later, he visited the costume department at Lenfilm and had the opportunity to ask the chief of the department if they had ever had any German camouflage smocks, and showed him a photo of one. The director recognized them and told him they had once had 50-60 such smocks, but they had been sold or transferred from the studio in the late 1970's when he first began to work there. (There was sharing between studios and, generally, the predecessor stamp was crossed through and a new stamp affixed.) He then asked if the studio had made these smocks. The director found his question very amusing and told him they had not. Several elderly staff members at Lenfilm recalled these smocks and told him that they had come from the Ministry of Defense. The director checked their accession records and told him that the studio had indeed received them from the MOD in 1947.

I am making this posting simply to pass on further information. I'm not going to "debate" it or get into any extended conversation about it. I just thought that those who are debating this subject might want to read it. I have no further information.

Thank you for taking the time to share this with us Leroy,

to say that both these recollections are very interesting would be an understatement.

I wonder if any member/ historian/ administrator reading this could get access to those "LENFILM" or USSR 1947 MOD records today ???

One thing about Russia, records are generally preserved if there has been no reason to remove/ steal them,

Chris

[RobertE]

Leroy, thanks for taking the time to further research this discussion with your colleagues.

The MOD transfer information supports the inventory stamp discussion, and is the first new information introduced on these smocks in some months.

regards, Robert

[phild]

First, let me say that I do not, and never have, collected SS material. I do, however, have an abiding interest (as we all seem to) in the "stories" surrounding controversial items. Having followed this thread, I made it a point, at the recent MAX, to speak with both Johannes Floch and another experienced collector, both of whom I have known for many, many years, about the antecedents of these smocks.

Johannes confirmed that he had, indeed, acquired these smocks many years ago from a contact in Czechosolvakia, that some were in bundles and some loose, and that it was his understanding that they had probably come originally from "the back door" of a film studio. He had nothing whatsoever to do with their manufacture and has always believed that they were real and simply leftover captured material in Russian hands that ended up in the Eastern studio system.

My other conversation was with a longtime collector who does not participate in online discussion forums, although he does occasionally "look in" to see what the people who do participate are talking about. His experience with militaria, to my own personal knowledge, is extensive and I vouch completely for his credibility. This is what he told me:

He has no personal interest in the authenticity of the "earth brown" (a/k/a "pink") SS smocks that first appeared on the market more than thirty years ago. He got one of these smocks, with what he recalls as an pinkish, earth-brown shade in the camo pattern, in 1981. As he recalls, it had the stamp "ЛЕНФИЛЬМ", or LENFILM (the film studio then in Leningrad, now St. Petersburg). When people started saying that these were believed to be copies, he traded it off. Some years later, he visited the costume department at Lenfilm and had the opportunity to ask the chief of the department if they had ever had any German camouflage smocks, and showed him a photo of one. The director recognized them and told him they had once had 50-60 such smocks, but they had been sold or transferred from the studio in the late 1970's when he first began to work there. (There was sharing between studios and, generally, the predecessor stamp was crossed through and a new stamp affixed.) He then asked if the studio had made these smocks. The director found his question very amusing and told him they had not. Several elderly staff members at Lenfilm recalled these smocks and told him that they had come from the Ministry of Defense. The director checked their accession records and told him that the studio had indeed received them from the MOD in 1947.

I am making this posting simply to pass on further information. I'm not going to "debate" it or get into any extended conversation about it. I just thought that those who are debating this subject might want to read it. I have no further information.

Leroy,

Thank you very much for the post. For me, I'm done and the case is closed as to their WWII origin. The stamps track very well with what Pete has found and posted and it also tracks with why many were removed and why there are a combination of stamps to found on those few with intact stamps.

I appreciate all of those who have helped with this subject. There is for sure more to be found out about these in terms of the variation, but everthing that you posted from the people above is very consistant with what I know to be a fact about the markings, the date(s) that the appeared and would have had to have started the journey (late 70s) and who brought them into the west and from where.

I got pretty down when ths post died a few weeks ago and I had some great and respected collectors PM me with their support...it meant a lot.

I got my one (no I am not horading them) example out again and went over it for an hour or so.....it can not be a fake...impossible from that period (late70s-early 80s) simply impossible.

[kammo man]

Simply impossible ..........

simply ......


simple.

so why is the HB pockets completely different from ANY TR HB known.

[phild]

Simply impossible ..........

simply ......


simple.

so why is the HB pockets completely different from ANY TR HB known.

Perhaps because it was not (or may not have been) made in the Third Reich proper...but another country. More likely even than that, it was not "hbt" intended for basic cloth in uniform manufacturing but rather more of sacking type material.....as I have seen similar "hbt" used in even German wartime sacking...after all it was a pocket bag for heaven's sake not field cap or tunic.

The hbt used in these pocket bags is made of mostly are entirely flax not cotton.....I'm doubtful if this was even still being done by the 1970s.

The problem is and always has been that these smocks have been compared and held to a standard that they must fully mirror a known German made cotton duck smock in order to be accepted.....end of story. This is a standard that EVEN accepted original German HBT smocks would not be able pass if they were measured to the same.

No one considered (in1980) that these may be a variation that was made in 42-43 from large captured stock of substitute fabric and perhaps even made in a different country than Germany.....using slightly different roller sizes so print pattern had to be adapted and different dyes and essentially what the local contractor could procure...that still met the standard.

Folks need to understand that hbt as a fabric/weave pattern did not begin and end with WWII German uniforms! It was a 100+year old work clothes cloth that was made all over the world in many slight variations and for many uses. Another fact is that there has never been a real study of all varitions of WWII used German hbt done on this forum and I doubt any other.....despite what many may think. Yes, German uniform hbt types and some captured varities have been examined in depth here, but there were other types used for many other applications (I have it in a number items) that is different from uniform hbt........

these were just pocket bags.....no need to ship bolts of German made regulation uniform cloth 800 km to make these!

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

http://www.lenfilm.ru/base_en.htm

Someone with a pink smock need to visit them, and have a proper check.

Also have some of the known pink smocks "Lenfilm" stamp (I don't remember) ?

The fact that they come from Lenfilm / Minister of Defense is not a proof that those smocks were done pre-1945.

US military intelligence made extensive studies after WWII on german camouflage, i can imagine that russian military intelligence did the same.
Even more if we see that they were more interested before, during and after WWII. It is possible that as for "Paperclip" operation, they started again the production of some smocks for training / UV experiment ?

See You

Vince

[A c h t u n g !]

Lenfilm employees are not collectors or "camo experts" and they know no difference between Planetree or Oakleaf pattern for example. All smocks are just "camouflage jackets" that all look the same to their eyes. Plus it is 40 years passed since 1970. Had your friend showed them any other smock they would have said the same thing about it. But it would be interesting to see the Lenfilm stamp on your friend's smock if he still has pictures of it.

[phild]

Hi,

http://www.lenfilm.ru/base_en.htm

The fact that they come from Lenfilm / Minister of Defense is not a proof that those smocks were done pre-1945.

US military intelligence made extensive studies after WWII on german camouflage, i can imagine that russian military intelligence did the same.
Even more if we see that they were more interested before, during and after WWII. It is possible that as for "Paperclip" operation, they started again the production of some smocks for training / UV experiment ?

See You

Vince

I considered the same possibility in the early 1980s and I have again in more recent times. I personally have dismissed that possibility as very very unlikely.

My main reasons are that every detail of the re-enfoced stitchings are like those or least in the same areas of the standard smocks as well as many many other small details that would not have been done if these were made up as a copy by a government post war...for whatever reason that I could hardly imagine anyway.

Some have written that the argument on these smocks is for both positions just opinion.....I disagree. The argument against them is all based on the 1:1 comparision differences that I stated in my post above this one. To some degree also the quauntity that showed up as well and lack of reconized period photos of these......but the argument in favor of these is much more objective....that is they are made to a detail and from a known verified period that fakes were not being made to that standard NOR were orginals being evaluated to that degree of exactness in detail, but rather more to pattern ecactness, fabric exactness and color.....non of which these smocks bothered to copy!

Frankly the stampings are the slam dunk that they are real....ironic in the sense that this characteristic was one of the big things that scared collectors off from them in 80/81 when they showed up......because they could not buy that any large amounts of WWII German uniforms were being held in the USSR and Eastern Europe. We all learned differently in the early 90s.....but it seems they most did not go back and re-consider these smocks from 10 years earlier...until recently.

Thes are not post war made film props, military study items or experimental CZ camo items......anyone can a make a stronger case that they were comissioned for wear by Himmler's escort detachment than they can for the former purposes.

[90th Light]

Perhaps because it was not (or may not have been) made in the Third Reich proper...but another country. More likely even than that, it was not "hbt" intended for basic cloth in uniform manufacturing but rather more of sacking type material.....as I have seen similar "hbt" used in even German wartime sacking...after all it was a pocket bag for heaven's sake not field cap or tunic.

The hbt used in these pocket bags is made of mostly are entirely flax not cotton.....I'm doubtful if this was even still being done by the 1970s.

The problem is and always has been that these smocks have been compared and held to a standard that they must fully mirror a known German made cotton duck smock in order to be accepted.....end of story. This is a standard that EVEN accepted original German HBT smocks would not be able pass if they were measured to the same.

No one considered (in1980) that these may be a variation that was made in 42-43 from large captured stock of substitute fabric and perhaps even made in a different country than Germany.....using slightly different roller sizes so print pattern had to be adapted and different dyes and essentially what the local contractor could procure...that still met the standard.

Folks need to understand that hbt as a fabric/weave pattern did not begin and end with WWII German uniforms! It was a 100+year old work clothes cloth that was made all over the world in many slight variations and for many uses. Another fact is that there has never been a real study of all varitions of WWII used German hbt done on this forum and I doubt any other.....despite what many may think. Yes, German uniform hbt types and some captured varities have been examined in depth here, but there were other types used for many other applications (I have it in a number items) that is different from uniform hbt........

these were just pocket bags.....no need to ship bolts of German made regulation uniform cloth 800 km to make these!

62/265/005 = Hermann Forester Sack- u. Planenfababrik OHG, one of the firms which produced or supplied the cotton duck/ canvas/ hbt used as the base material to manufacture Zeltbahns for the SS. This code number sometimes appeared on the rolls/ bolts of cloth before the were rolled or printed with the camo patterns. In other words this was one of the suppliers of the cloth that was used by the factories which made the Zelts.

They did not use the RB or RF prefix in front of their code just "62/265/005" on its own. This is often the case when one sees RB/RF type code numbers on an SS item. Such codes are not seen on SS items very often if at all. The question still remains if these codes are used by SS owned/ control suppliers or those outside of the SS system but contracted to make up short-falls in SS logistics.

Two digit prefixes are uncommon but they do sometimes turn up on military items in rare cases,

Chris

[phild]

62/265/005 = Hermann Forester Sack- u. Planenfababrik OHG, one of the firms which produced or supplied the cotton duck/ canvas/ hbt used as the base material to manufacture Zeltbahns for the SS. This code number sometimes appeared on the rolls/ bolts of cloth before the were rolled or printed with the camo patterns. In other words this was one of the suppliers of the cloth that was used by the factories which made the Zelts.

They did not use the RB or RF prefix in front of their code just "62/265/005" on its own. This is often the case when one sees RB/RF type code numbers on an SS item. Such codes are not seen on SS items very often if at all. The question still remains if these codes are used by SS owned/ control suppliers or those outside of the SS system but contracted to make up short-falls in SS logistics.

Two digit prefixes are uncommon but they do sometimes turn up on military items in rare cases,

Chris

Chris,

Yes, these are great questions regarding SS contract items and clothing and the markings that they may have used. The Rb Nr used (or not) for contract clothing is controversial as are the code that you mention and I am very undecided on the Rb Nr question....but think that maybe some SS contract items (clothing) bore those marks.

It is interestng that un-like most every Heer/KM/LW cotract item from a glove to a tunic (maybe not socks??!!) bore the maker and later the RbNr....


but not true with SS camo smocks (and helmet covers)...at least I have never heard of of one of these items factory or SS depot stamped.

[Fritz]

The problem is and always has been that these smocks have been compared and held to a standard that they must fully mirror a known German made cotton duck smock in order to be accepted.....end of story.

Of course, Phil. What else do you want to compare them to if not known originals?

And again: These smocks have sooooooooo many problems, not just one or two, or three.

Cheers

[pete]

.

Interesting development! I hope there may be other smocks out there with intact markings. As this has now been written is there anyone out there who maybe watches but doesn't comment might show theirs or anybody who knows where to get more marking photos? We could also contact at least Lenfilm now and ask for contacts and further info.


Regards,

Pete

[90th Light]

Chris,

Yes, these are great questions regarding SS contract items and clothing and the markings that they may have used. The Rb Nr used (or not) for contract clothing is controversial as are the code that you mention and I am very undecided on the Rb Nr question....but think that maybe some SS contract items (clothing) bore those marks.

It is interestng that un-like most every Heer/KM/LW cotract item from a glove to a tunic (maybe not socks??!!) bore the maker and later the RbNr....


but not true with SS camo smocks (and helmet covers)...at least I have never heard of of one of these items factory or SS depot stamped.

Hello phild.

The collecting community has not got the puzzle of WW2 "hbt" worked out.

Many collectors struggle to be able to say with certainty, if hbt is made before May 1945 or post war. Another area of confusion is hbt made in Germany verses hbt made in another part of the Third Reich or one of the "axis" allies

When I get a chance, I will do some comparative images of the pink smock pocket hbt compared side by side with hbt from pre-May 1945 SS manufacturers/ suppliers who used the prefix "62" and the prefix "64"

In the mean time here are some images of another example which caused a stir in more ways than one. I challenge anyone who claims to know their stuff about hbt, to tell me which country this example was made in ??? Not only is it an unknown hbt but on the sleeve, there is a nasty "straight" stitch running down the cuff adjustment opening instead of the accepted type at an angle. Yet, this is what they were wearing around Trieste in April-May 1945,

Chris

[phild]

Of course, Phil. What else do you want to compare them to if not known originals?

And again: These smocks have sooooooooo many problems, not just one or two, or three.

Cheers

Fritz,

I would say that differences are not necessarily problems...meaning issues that point to any type of item as being a fake based solely on the fact that something is not just like it's counterpart of a known original. They (differences) can be a red flag of course, but this is where collecting requires some investigation.
What has happened with the smocks is that a verdict was passed by the big movers and shakers in the SS camo community some 30 years ago and this verdict was not based on a factual study of these garments, but rather a knee jerk type of reaction that were different, had funny stampings, appeared in quantity, were less expensive and came from a source that many suspected......but by the way is well known for turning up many major finds of large stocks of 100% real items as well as being involved with some fakes (mostly badges) as fat as I know this person always sold his fakes as fakes....what happened with them downstream is another matter, but not his doing.

I know that many who post on these now have not in fact actually carefully examined one...at least recently. I can tell this by the nature of their comments and questions.

Collectors like Chris have posted some great things captured from NZ and Australian soldiers in the Northern Italy/Yugoslavian area at the end of the war. These variations have not before been known in the U.S. nor Germany....many U.S. collectors (for example) seem to think that they have a lock on every variation that existed....and this is non-sense.

I've posted this about 100 times and no one has responded...but here goes again.......if compared a pair of LW tropical trousers made in Germany of drill to a later Italian (French?) made pair in hbt I would find every difference that is being cited with the smocks, material m color, fittings, buttons, button hole construction, thread and lining material differences.....if I said one is wrong (fake) and the other is "right" based on all of those points......I would be doing exactly what the experts did 30 years ago on these smocks.

By the way...it was posted a while back that the button holes on these smocks are not bar tacked...and that is correct, but Beaver shows a number (not a high number) of period SS camo garments that clearly have non Bar tacked button holes...including at least one smock.....these examples are also in fact machine sewn button holes cut after sewing JUST like these smocks...so that is a non starter "problem" just like the other things raised about these.