Agree!!👍
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Even the Russians adapted this BRICK (Birch/pink) color in their war time camouflage... because apparently it worked well with the local topography...
We are so used to just looking at B/W images, not realizing the flora and fauna conditions of that theatre...
Another reason to take a hard look at why these smocks appear/exist in these colors!
How do you say "Stinky Pinky" in Russian?
Last edited by NickG; 12-20-2015, 09:47 PM.Comment
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I am the one who introduced the possible Estonian connection and possibility of that SS camo pattern being worn by them. Of course nothing else to prove or establish this connection has been found so far.Originally posted by SJP View Post
However, when one researches the need that the Estonians might have had for a "Birch" type pattern on the Eastern front, along the lines of what Nick is showing in various images. It gets both interesting and revealing;
"The 288. Front Battalion of the Estonian Police served under the command of SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln. Just a few months in existence, this battalion had been moved to Belarus to participate in an operation with the cynical name “Winterzauber” (winter magic), running from February to April 1943.
Jeckeln’s group had the task to create a 40-km unpopulated corridor between the town of Sebezh and the Drissa, a small river. The order was to execute anyone suspected of being a partisan, and to march the remainder of the population to collection points and camps.
Those deemed too weak for the march to the nearest collection point were murdered also, which included children and the elderly. Upon arrival at the collection points, the remainder were sorted into those strong enough to be deported to Germany for forced labour, and those deemed too weak, who were then sent off to extermination camps and killed.
Well over 10,000 inhabitants of the area died, and some 15,000 were deported or ended up in extermination camps like the one in Salaspils close to Riga. More than 180 villages were completely destroyed.
The 288. Front Battalion was later sent to fend off the Red Army at Nevel on the Russian border along with the rest of Jeckeln’s men.
The second Estonian unit involved was the 3rd Estonian SS Volunteer Brigade. It was moved to the same area in Belarus, where it took up anti-partisan action under the oversight of SS-Obergruppenführer Erich von dem Bach, to which Jeckeln and his men also belonged.
Hitler summed up von dem Bach very nicely, talking about the man’s reliable service as early as in the 1930s: “Whenever there was a place where communist resistance couldn’t be broken, I made him go there, and he thrashed them.”
The procedure was always the same. First, his troops would encircle the area via the forests. Then they would make lists of all the villages in it that were deemed to be supporting partisans or late with food deliveries to the Germans. Then would follow what was euphemistically called the “combing” of the area: The houses were destroyed, and the civilians either murdered, arrested or deported to Germany as forced labour for its industries.
The 3rd Estonian SS Volunteer Brigade arrived in time to join such an operation run by Erich von dem Bach, called “Heinrich”. The SS had to cancel the party on 9 November, as all involved troops were sent to fight the Red Army in Nevel. Still, “Heinrich” resulted in 5,452 killed, 7,916 forced into slave labour in German factories, and another 7,894 deported.
Reading up on Estonian SS troops in the year 1943 and on into 1944, most Estonian and English sources simply omit these two operations. With the exception of a few that can’t ignore the deployment of certain units for the sake of accurate dates, Operation “Winterzauber” and Operation “Heinrich” are neatly screened out.
Where they are mentioned, a fight against partisans with reference to terrain and engagements won is the only thing you read about. The war crimes committed only come up in references to the higher-level German SS units in English and German-language sources. The Estonian sources on the whole leave them out.
Biographies of the involved Estonian officers usually neglect these two operations entirely."
Both interesting and equally frightening stuff. However, clearly showing a need for good, appropriate camo clothing to match terrain, vegetation and season,
ChrisComment
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Hi Chris , In my conversions with Mike that's why it wasn't included in his research.Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
He was close to Borsarello and it was discussed. There was no shortage of the " provenance " behind these pieces.... Anything to move them .........they didn't sell them selves.
Cheers SteveComment
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Thanks Steve,Originally posted by SJP View Post
I understand and respect the points that you are making.
Sadly, we can but now only speculate what both authors, authorities on the subject would have made of what is being presented on this thread,
ChrisComment
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In additions to what I posted in post number 1923,
we also have to consider units like Nick has already identified.
These guys would have needed to procure SS camo clothing at a time of shortage/ growing production challenges in Germany.
Many would need camo to fight in "Birch" forests,
Chris
p.s. and we have not yet considered Lativan SS units plus other SS units from occupied former Soviet states of the USSR or other parts of the Third Reich
Originally posted by NickG View PostLast edited by 90th Light; 12-20-2015, 09:51 PM.Comment
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double post
as if this thread is not already long enough,
ChrisComment
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Originally posted by NickG View PostEven the Russian adapted this BRICK (Birch/pink) color in their war time camouflage... because apparently it worked well with the local topography...
We are so used to just looking at B/W images, not realizing the flora and fauna conditions of that theatre...
Another reason to take a hard look at why these smocks appear/exist in these colors!
How do you say "Stinky Pinky" in Russian?
Nick , Another " red heering" the soviet " Omeba" pattern was in use long before this "pattern " showed up.
Other than captured clothing can you show period photos of examples of german clothing coping Soviet material ( other than armor)
Cheers SteveLast edited by SJP; 12-20-2015, 09:55 PM.Comment
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NickOriginally posted by NickG View PostEven the Russians adapted this BRICK (Birch/pink) color in their war time camouflage... because apparently it worked well with the local topography...
We are so used to just looking at B/W images, not realizing the flora and fauna conditions of that theatre...
Another reason to take a hard look at why these smocks appear/exist in these colors!
How do you say "Stinky Pinky" in Russian?
Pulling Russian cammo of a repo site and comparing it to PINK SS CLOWN jackets is perfect.
owenComment
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Yes indeed repros Owen and these are accurate reproductions or "impressions" that show (for Steve also) that these colors were appropriate for the theatre....That's all...
Much easier than using Russian B/W period pictures which don't illustrate this....It does not matter who introduced Pink-Birch-Brick colors first or who supposedly copied it from the other side...(as a possibility) its about introducing a camo (on both sides) that works best with the surrounding conditions (like snow camo would!).
The only purpose of dragging WW2 Russian camo patterns into the mix is to show that the "Pink" (Birch-Brick) colors are not unrealistic for that theatre! As the color is the first thing that was attacked....as its different...Perhaps also because its a different campaign post West front Blitzkrieg.. camos evolved and changed all the time...Again speculative but still interesting to show that "brick" was appropriate as the Soviets used it!Last edited by NickG; 12-20-2015, 10:12 PM.Comment
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NICK .Originally posted by NickG View Post
Are you saying the Russians copied PINK cammo colors in their prints when PINK in your eyes was a last ditch cammo pattern ?
And that their pattern pre dates PINK ?
owenComment
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Where is just one of the above units in a period photo using these? They are not like the Dachau finds which have solid provenance ...but were often confused with " The Delta International" fakesOriginally posted by 90th Light View Post
Cheers SteveComment
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ALL I am saying is that it is a theatre appropriate color based on proven Russian use. That's all. Not been illustrated-compared before!Originally posted by kammo man View PostComment
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Steve,Originally posted by SJP View Post
it is very hard to find photos of the Baltic & Russian SS units fighting in Russia, full stop.
You can find German newsreel/ propaganda stuff and pictures of them departing for the Russian front or when they were first formed, but sadly war time fighting/ operational images are almost non-existent.
I draw the comparison with the fighting in East Prussia 1945, film of that both on an official level and unofficial level has been found. This is also helped by the newsreels when the German re-took parts of East Prussia and wanted to show what the Russian soldiers had done.
But when it comes to non German SS units fighting Partisans and the Red Army in Russia, basically nothing.
This compounded by;
1/ we do not know if they had official news/ propaganda units attached to those SS units ?
2/ were individuals of such units allowed to have cameras ?
3/ the danger of surrender to the Russians or being taken prisoner at all (cameras/ film/ photos all lost or a death sentence ?)
4/ trying to escape to the West to surrender to the USA forces which either failed on the way (Russian forces/ Partisans) or they were handed back to the Russians by the Americans very soon after they were captured (not many made it to the West).
The non-German units I have found the most photos for is those fighting in Italy 1943 to 45 especially the 7th SS Volunteer Mountain Division Prinz Eugen.
The 7th SS Division wore huge amounts of SS camo clothing while fighting partisans. If that is anything to go by, it might show that camo was the norm in battle for such SS units,
ChrisComment
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