"Pink" smock or not?

[RobertE]

Thanks Owen, it would be nice to view an unwashed specimen.

The pinks are only slightly different, as far as we know, but that's no reason to be suspicous, IMO. I'll wager that for every smock deemed original, the other 5 or 10 thousand ones produced at the same time they were would be pretty identical as well. However, the other couple thousand examples were destroyed 1943-1945.

Large quantities of anything produced at the end of the war survived in larger numbers than stuff leading up to 1945, especially if it didn't have immediate post-war use.

I will provide this to the discussion: I have one of the variant smocks under discussion, and it is made just like those pictured. The stitching on the cammo foliage straps glows BRIGHTLY, which is taken to be a bad sign as we know. It has the unmarked HBT pockets.

It's possible the treated fabric resisted the post-war cleaning, while the cotton thread absorbed the cleaning agent. The other option is that the smock was put together post-war, using synthetic thread.

regards, Robert

[phild]

Thanks Owen, it would be nice to view an unwashed specimen.

The pinks are only slightly different, as far as we know, but that's no reason to be suspicous, IMO. I'll wager that for every smock deemed original, the other 5 or 10 thousand ones produced at the same time they were would be pretty identical as well. However, the other couple thousand examples were destroyed 1943-1945.

Large quantities of anything produced at the end of the war survived in larger numbers than stuff leading up to 1945, especially if it didn't have immediate post-war use.

I will provide this to the discussion: I have one of the variant smocks under discussion, and it is made just like those pictured. The stitching on the cammo foliage straps glows BRIGHTLY, which is taken to be a bad sign as we know. It has the unmarked HBT pockets.

It's possible the treated fabric resisted the post-war cleaning, while the cotton thread absorbed the cleaning agent. The other option is that the smock was put together post-war, using synthetic thread.

regards, Robert

Let me say that UV reaction has nothing to do with synthetic thread, but rather the existence of whiteners in the material....actually to be specific the use phosphor based whiteners....if the pink smocks were washed with a phosphor laundry detergent then the thread ends and fabric in general might show a bit of a glow.

The whole thing and the ONLY aspect with merit of using a UV light on fabric is the see if white fabric (it only works on white) had a whitener used in its prep because this was generally not much done until after WWII....some very loose rules here.

[pete]

.

I have started these threads as something to assist us to narrow down possibly this very stamp,, parts thereof or similarities.

Pete



http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=568426 (SS)


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...73#post5076173 (Heer)


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=568418 (Luftwaffe)


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=568424 (KM)


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=568421 (Italian and Axis)


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=568425 (Headgear in general)


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=568427 (Post WW2 Communist items)

[kammo man]

Ok .
Pete .
Maybe there is some sore of Movie Forum dealing with eastern Film companies .
I dont know if there are , but if we are here I am sure so are they .
owen

[RobertE]

The whole thing and the ONLY aspect with merit of using a UV light on fabric is the see if white fabric (it only works on white) had a whitener used in its prep because this was generally not much done until after WWII....some very loose rules here.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and some people don't believe in the UV "test" anyway. I just checked it again, and it is the matted end of each of the cammo loops that glows, on both sides of the fabric. By glowing, I mean the flourecent bright glow; I laid it next to a selection of white-backed insignia, subdued and otherwise. They glow, though all other thread (seams, hand-stitching, ect) does not glow.

Can anyone else check their pink smock to see if they have a glow from the raw end of the cammo loops sewn on all over the smock?

regards, Robert

[pete]

.

Owen,

Can you get some photos of the Smock you saw?


Regards,

Pete

[PBR]

Why in the hell didn't the Koreans remove the BeVo eagles from the sleeves?
This is just nutz.

Nice pictures BTW

[kingsman9]

Hello All, I am new to this site and found it whilst looking for information regarding the "Pink" Smock,, I have had one in my collection for several years was looking to sell it, however the opinions on them are very mixed. I did send it to herman historica for authentication but with poor response. I believe them to be of late war manufacture and am tempted to send it away for chemical analysis (just to prove a point), I did have a thought that the unusual colour pallet used was a poor effort at producing an IRR smock (enter 'liebermuster') but was never used as such. Again, I will test this theory when the smock is returned to me from the auction house

Thoughts Please

[Fritz]

I did have a thought that the unusual colour pallet used was a poor effort at producing an IRR smock (enter 'liebermuster') but was never used as such.

Oak and dot patterns had variants that used a dye which resulted in a color known as " tarnoliv ", this dye also had absorbent features.

It has nothing to do with that pink tone (or any other on that smock for that matter).


Cheers

[phild]

Hello All, I am new to this site and found it whilst looking for information regarding the "Pink" Smock,, I have had one in my collection for several years was looking to sell it, however the opinions on them are very mixed. I did send it to herman historica for authentication but with poor response. I believe them to be of late war manufacture and am tempted to send it away for chemical analysis (just to prove a point), I did have a thought that the unusual colour pallet used was a poor effort at producing an IRR smock (enter 'liebermuster') but was never used as such. Again, I will test this theory when the smock is returned to me from the auction house

Thoughts Please

If you are able to have a serious test performed on these that produces some solid results for materials or chemicals that have to post date 1945, you will be real PATHFINDER on this debate and I encourage you to do this if you have the access.

I sort of wondered if the colors used in 45 Liebermuster were not inspired by the colors in these smocks? If the smocks are pre-45 they would for sure pre-date the Liebermuster by a few years....these smocks are of course the 2nd pattern of SS smock from 1942 onward, but they are the first type of those....with thge straight pocket flaps....so they should pre-date mid 43 or so. Most feel based on period documentation that SS smocks were not made after early 1944 with the fielding of the HBT 4 pocket sets.....

I think that as you mentioned the dyes may be the main aspect to test for conclusive results....at least if they have to post date 1945.

[kingsman9]

Thanks for the words of encouragement, I am not put ff by the ney sayers on this matter as I have come across other SS items before that have not been documented (not even by the so called experts) and have proved to be authentic

[Fritz]

No offense meant but it seems things are being turned and twisted as needed. When these smocks need to be late they are late and when they need to be early they are early.


The reddish sections in the leibermuster are IMO related to the wehrmacht's patterns, especially the marsch pattern and have nothing to do with these pink smocks.

In fact numerous features of ss camouflage (leiber isn't even an "ss pattern" per se) that today are widely linked to the ss' camo department were inspired by patterns of other forces (friend and foe).

Cheers

[kingsman9]

I understand its all speculation until the fat lady sings, I have,as of this evening, set the ball rolling with regard to analysis, I am hoping that Liverpool university will lake on the project, I also understand the opinions of those that doubt the originality of these smocks, but at the very least I believe an open mind on the matter keeps us all in the debate, and in response to your comments on the red pigment in liebermuster,,, I didnt say it was the same as in the Pinky, just an observation as to the use (trial) of Infra red resistant colours and the development of those colours

[kingsman9]

does anyone have any information on the dyes etc used pre 45 because I am pretty sure it will be impossible to make a comparison without it

[Fritz]

I understand its all speculation until the fat lady sings, I have,as of this evening, set the ball rolling with regard to analysis, I am hoping that Liverpool university will lake on the project

Good luck. However, at best they can tell it was made using components that were in use before or after 45. If these smocks, for instance, were made by the czechs for their own forces during the 50s or 60s it may be quite hard to tell and they might show "perfect" test results.

I also understand the opinions of those that doubt the originality of these smocks, but at the very least I believe an open mind on the matter keeps us all in the debate

It is up to each single one how open his or her mind is, the so called comfort zone. And I have no problem whatsoever with those that like these smocks. Yet, those that are on the fence should get to hear about the pros and cons to look at it from an objective point of view in order to form their own opinion.

and in response to your comments on the red pigment in liebermuster,,, I didnt say it was the same as in the Pinky

I never said you said that.

Cheers