"Pink" smock or not?

[RobertE]

Bob,with all respect,he was ripped off with this smocks,i realy dont want to use "names" as i like live in peace,and enjoy shows here ,but that is a fact.,im sure more WAF members know the story.

I seriously doubt it. These smocks have been fought over with passion here on this forum many times; if someone had a "silver bullet" providing hard evidence these were replica it would have been used.

Now, if you mean that there are people who believe them to be replica, that is another matter. These have been attributed to a number of countries and individual replicators, but the story always falls apart when examined.

No one knows on these smocks, hence the continuing discussion.

s/f Robert

[phild]

Can you explain why English dealer "regimentals" offer from time to time fake SS tunics with russian stamps???? i can made a stamp for five euro,which one you want,and put it on any fake,what a nonseans from you sorry.

Yes sir I think that I can. I will not speak in any way toward Regimentals as I have no personal knowledge of their practices in doing the above, but I do know that there has been some fake uniform items with "fake" Russain/CZ film property stamps being added in order to give them a boost to orginal status....instant pedigree. This practice came about as a result of the large amount of material that came from the eastern countries starting in the late 1980s and more so in the early 1990s with these type stamps inside.

Now I ask you given the fact that the items containing these stamps sold for a fraction of the price of items not having them at the time ( I conceed that part of this was due to in almost every case re-sewn or missing insignia coming into play....but even trousers were much less when stamped) and the fact that it took a while in the late 80s/early 90s for collectors to understand and accept the stamps.....esp. when many dealers competing with the ones bringing in those items were trash talking the goods in order to keep customer business (sound familiar??) would anyone stamp plus hand write bogus numbers and then remove and or mark out then same some 10 years before masses of such items lended a basis to understand and put weight in such markings?????

One thing that I thought back then 1981 and I think it even more now is that IF these were faked....the faker was an idiot not to make these in 1st pattern!!! He would have had about 2/3 of the work and 2/3 of the material involved and could have sold them at the time for 2X the money.......

[90th Light]

its a fact,you are not from Europe,so you dont know dealers here,at last not in person.One of major German dealers know the whole story. ciao
and no,he has not made them,but he know very well who has made them.

I am sorry to say besslein,

but all you offer is hearsay i.e. "someone unknown told a German dealer who is also unknown who told you "

If this keeps going then we have a " Chinese whisper " increasingly distorted as it passes from one person lips to another, almost always inaccurate and often completely out of context.

If you have something more tangible then that would be a help,

Chris

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

so the story may be :

- smocks made by Berman & Nathan (costumers in London in the 80's) for ???
(where some even used for any film ? First stamps applied ?)

- someone bought the lot / a lot and transfered them to Austria and applied other eastern stamps (maybe to hide the first stamps ?). The idea was to create the myth of the "original late war smocks stocked by some eastern countries, which are found by some professional dealer" (Johannes).
This "myth" was maybe taken from real findings in the east (army stocks, museums, film companies etc...) and someone decided to milk "great fakes" (done by Berman & Nathan) into the "eastern stock story" to have a plausible product...

- someone sold to Johannes the smocks as "real ones". Johannes sold the smocks to various dealers and collectors.

- some smocks are proposed by Regimentals, maybe from Johannes, or maybe directly from Berman & Nathan... ?

See You

Vince

[besslein]

I am sorry to say besslein,

but all you offer is hearsay i.e. "someone unknown told a German dealer who is also unknown who told you "

If this keeps going then we have a " Chinese whisper " increasingly distorted as it passes from one person lips to another, almost always inaccurate and often completely out of context.

If you have something more tangible then that would be a help,

Chris

ok sure i think you ,as you are from New Zealand,know better,its my last post in this thread,as its start to be boring for me,yea nice pink smocks .

[RobertE]

Location doesn't have much to do with it. Living in Europe does not give you unique insight into the originaility of an item. If the lineage or provinence of an item is based on the European militaria dealers being involved in their purchase (or fraud), then that is of significance to this discussion.

regards, Robert

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

Fritz resumed perfectly the current situation about the pink SS smocks if you take them without all the "bogus-real" stories (eastern stocks, Johannes, Berman, Regimentals, stamps).

We have:

- No drawstrings
- No other camo material mixed in
- No other camo material with the same pattern just with other tones mixed in
- No period picture that backs this type up
- No zelt, no cover, no cap no kombi in the same pattern
- Odd material
- Odd print
- Odd thread (grey and green)
- The very unlikely event that these got captured from some ss depot in the soviet union in 1943.
- The list could be continued

Now all these facts are being "excused away" in order to support these items authenticity. That doesn't work for me, even if they had a Kremlin stamp with Stalin's signature. Sorry.

I know many people like them and I respect that but to me these will never be original german ww2 garments and I will post my opinion.

Cheers

so....

- some people (Besslein, Fritz, At The Front and others) are saying that the smocks are FAKE, giving part of the story (the full story is not available probably because we all know that it will start many personal fights...),

- historically speaking, Fritz gave us an interesting listing with all the "strange things" that tend to prove that NO historical proof exist for those SS pink smocks (they were not made during WWII - therefore they are clearly post WWII).

Those two important aspects are two different parts of the whole story.
And for now, we don't have any plausible fact that the SS pink smocks were done during WWII...

See You

Vince

[phild]

Hi,

Fritz resumed perfectly the current situation about the pink SS smocks if you take them without all the "bogus-real" stories (eastern stocks, Johannes, Berman, Regimentals, stamps).



so....

- some people (Besslein, Fritz, At The Front and others) are saying that the smocks are FAKE, giving part of the story (the full story is not available probably because we all know that it will start many personal fights...),

- historically speaking, Fritz gave us an interesting listing with all the "strange things" that tend to prove that NO historical proof exist for those SS pink smocks (they were not made during WWII - therefore they are clearly post WWII).

Those two important aspects are two different parts of the whole story.
And for now, we don't have any plausible fact that the SS pink smocks were done during WWII...

See You

Vince

Sometimes things border on unsanity when attempting a discusssion. I wonder if any other posts on this thread have been read. For the life of me I can not understand one blow against these being orignal due to lack of drawstrings.....If factory installed drawstrings were the criteria for originality there would be maybe 12 SS smocks in the world that would be 100% orignal. I wish that someone could enlighten me on this as an "issue"?

The odd mis-match fabric non-issue is more than accounted for and it would be odd if these had it as they clearly were not made by one of the factories or the factory that made them for years and had old material around.......this fabric was printed to make these smocks.....NOT shipped somewhere that was already makeing them and had been makeing them.....how simple can it be? How many zelts have you seen out of hbt? Some SS smocks were made of hbt....where are the hbt zelts?

As far as I can tell EVERY concern that was posted by Fritz points to these smocks being made up as a spearate contract and jobber and location (maybe or maybe not within Germany) printing the fabric and making the smock.....nothing more and nothing less.

It is interesting that there has not been one serious contribution regarding the stamps. The N&B origin has been de-bunked years ago.....there is not one shred of evidence......it flat did not happen.

These are not late war...they would date to late 42-mid 43.....the period where the W-SS doubled in size by the way....and all of the references from Mollo to Beaver cite as the mad scamble for material and unforms to fit out about 8 divisions and to re-fit the other 8 decimated in Russia.


I do agree on one thing and that is someone is witholding information....but it is not about these being fake, but the opposite direction.

There is no need for me to write this again as I have written it at least 6 times since 2004 and it has never been even commented on...so probably never read......but even without the need I ask people to consider why would these smocks have been made not as a copy an acdepted orginal nor even attempt it....which they do not.....but rather made soley to stand on their own as a robust functional smock?

These smocks made as this variation of a type I M 42 had 30 foliage loops per smock fabricated and then sewn on in 10 sets per smock with 5 extra center passes ...when most orginals ommitted these center loop stitches. No big deal when one a faking a dozen or two dozen items......but hundreds of these turned up.

It is a waste to go on. Until the stamps are accounted for there is nothing more to say as it is all in the posts that have been made on these over the years...close to 10 now on this forum alone......

[Fred Fokkelman]

I must say, what a super interesting thread this has become. I'm really enjoying it.

I know that the discussion about the originality of these smocks dates back to the 80's. I always bought these French military magazines, I still have them somewhere, and in one of them the pink smock was depicted. Even then the discussion raged on and on.
Some said, why didn't they make more of these smocks if they are fakes? Would be very profitable to make many more... To be honest I don't know. But I do know the story they came from Austria through CZ was current at the time.
I examined these smocks with some others and there were always opposing groups. I felt the feel of the fabric was different from the originals... be it Blurred Edge, Palm, Oak and so on. Not to mention the colors and stitching material.
I think the only conclusive answer would be a forensic examination. However if proved original these smocks are stained with doubt and will never be fully accepted as real.

[Dr. Strangelove]

$6,500.00

Well, If you have a Pink Smock it could be your lucky day soon. I, potentially, in the near future, may put this ultra rare pink camo cap on the Estand to match your Smock.

The Hat is much rarer than the Smock, but if you are the Collector who wants to "have it all", feast your eyes on this...just look at that stitching..you know it right!!

Now if I just had the hyper rare "Pink Skull".

[phild]

[QUOTE=Fred Fokkelman;5498059I examined these smocks with some others and there were always opposing groups. I felt the feel of the fabric was different from the originals... be it Blurred Edge, Palm, Oak and so on. Not to mention the colors and stitching material.
QUOTE]


Fred, I liked your last post as it was very accurate and summed up the situation well. I will say about the lines from your post that I inserted above, I could say the same thing if I compared any of the duck based accepted orignal SS smocks to an hbt SS smock.....or for that matter hbt 4 pocket dot camo to a Italian brushed cotton dot 4 poctet.

That is one of the points that I have been tryng to make. How would it have been more than remotely possible that any garmet contracted out (more so to a occupied country) would have used German fabric, German thread, German dye and German lining? Non of the German uniform items that I am aware of that were made in countries outside of Germany are identical on most any of the above criteria to the German made counterpart. Why would these be any different.....that is to say identical to a Geman made SS smock?

[pete]

.

Looks like some nice responses are finnaly coming in to refer to, apart from the patterns of blacking out from good items that seem to be common, i find it interesting the various but similiar eastern stamp designs when you compare them.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...highlight=film

The white one is from a Soviet childrens theatre.

http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Waffe...s/S004868.html

The Pink smock pocket stamp markings again below, the same Triangle and circle being present in the dot pants. Triangle type stamps seem to be present in some form in other captured items posted, even on weapons so it seems, if i notice correctly?



Regards,

Pete

[Fred Fokkelman]

[QUOTE=phild;5498495]

Fred, I liked your last post as it was very accurate and summed up the situation well. I will say about the lines from your post that I inserted above, I could say the same thing if I compared any of the duck based accepted orignal SS smocks to an hbt SS smock.....or for that matter hbt 4 pocket dot camo to a Italian brushed cotton dot 4 poctet.

That is one of the points that I have been tryng to make. How would it have been more than remotely possible that any garmet contracted out (more so to a occupied country) would have used German fabric, German thread, German dye and German lining? Non of the German uniform items that I am aware of that were made in countries outside of Germany are identical on most any of the above criteria to the German made counterpart. Why would these be any different.....that is to say identical to a Geman made SS smock?

You have a valid point and a good one. That's the problem we face as collectors... the many variations.

[Fritz]

I have not really followed the stamp discussion based on the fact that to me they will remain postwar items, stamp or no stamp.

I would still like to understand your point though. I take it we are talking about a few that have such stamps vs many that don't. Is that correct?

Then what is the point in stamping only a small fraction of these smocks?


Can we agree on that such museum stamps are being faked since many years?


Cheers

[Fred Fokkelman]

I have not really followed the stamp discussion based on the fact that to me they will remain postwar items, stamp or no stamp.

I would still like to understand your point though. I take it we are talking about a few that have such stamps vs many that don't. Is that correct?

Then what is the point in stamping only a small fraction of these smocks?


Can we agree on that such museum stamps are being faked since many years?


Cheers

I am as sceptical as you are about the smocks. The stamps you mention are indeed being faked, but not all of them are fakes.... For me the discussion should be focused on the smocks themselves.