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**phild** · 11-16-2007, 12:25 AM

[quote=Matthew S.;2288568]How much is a particular piece of militaria worth? It is all quite simple. A double decaled Heer paratrooper helmet is WORTH a few dollars in scrap metal. The fact that collectors will pay 20K for one has nothing to do with it’s worth but rather with its desirability. Collectors will pay out the ying-yang for one because it is perceived as being rare or unique – its value. But there is a certain breaking point to the value/worth argument. "

The rational above applies to most everything in civilization. When one can buy an orignal FJ helm for say $100 there will be no reason that they will not also be able to buy a new MB sports car for $2000 or an Armani suit for $50. WWII militaria is collected on a global level. There may well be peaks and some slight price drops in this field as there are in all others, but if waiting for the boomers to die off in order to find things at a bargan basement price is one's idea of a collecting "strategy", well all I can say is good luck!

**NTZ** · 11-16-2007, 07:59 AM

John makes a good point back a ways in this thread. Why is an item that is sold through a Wolfe or Shea more valuable than one through another collector? IMO it is not. I put my collection together mostly through purchasing from other collectors. I prefer not to use dealers unless it is something I can’t find. I would do the same due diligence examining an item no matter if it came from Wolfe or Joe Blow. Both items would have to meet my strict standards equally. The Gottlieb tunic which I think prompted this thread is a perfect example. John had a hard time selling a tunic that was most likely untouched. A few thought is was messed with but even so it was selling for a fraction of what an admitted restored tunic is selling for. Why? If you don’t know enough about what you buy to make the same decision no matter who is selling you deserve to pay ultra high dealer prices. JM2C

**Chad1** · 11-16-2007, 09:00 AM

prices

Prices are high because we are willing to pay them. End of story.

Secretly, many are happy about it too. Yeah, it might limit how much we can buy, but it makes what you have more valuable.

I'm getting priced right out of this hobby because I need to sell something every time I want to buy, but maybe that's a sign to step down my expectations or find a new avenue to explore.

As for buying from a dealer vs. another collector, it's not so easy to find exactly what you want. Besides, the big stuff drifts under the table anyway. It can be tough for a new collector to get in on the action, even if he has the money.

Take myself. Between work and other committments I haven't been able to get to a show for years. Something like the MAX or SOS? Yeah, someday, maybe? So I can either go to a dealer or camp out on the e-stand and hope that somebody has exactly what I want.

Lastly, if your steady, you might be able to utilize a layaway policy lasting many months with a dealer. How many other collectors offer that?

Dealers aren't so bad. They just have one aspect of the market covered.

**N.C. Wyeth** · 11-16-2007, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by NTZ View Post

John makes a good point back a ways in this thread. Why is an item that is sold through a Wolfe or Shea more valuable than one through another collector? IMO it is not.

I agree, but I still think the answer to the question is the "perceived" sense of security a Gottlieb, Wolfe, or Shea transpires onto a Buyer that I tried to explain before - I think some people do believe in the "guarantee" they receive when they buy from someone's repuatation. Paying a higher price for some does not feel so risky when they feel that it might be easier to get a refund down the road. Suddenly, a Buyer is relieved of responsibility to know what he or she is buying, and knowing that if they make a bad decision, they will always retain the ability to take the purchase back to the point of sale for refund. Wolfe and Shea know this, and likewise, bank very much so on that "reputation" they have been delivered by all of us. They have an awful lot of uneducated potential customers coming in . . .

Is that "guarantee" better from an icon name or an unknown name? Does the "guarantee" from an iconic name allow a Buyer to feel it's better to pay more for an item knowing they have much less risk of making a mistake? If you buy a high-ticket phoney item from an unkown on the E-Stand or at a Show, will you get your money back three years later when you finally figure it out? Do you feel better sleeping at night with a Warranty from a big-name automobile company, or do you feel just the same if you received the Warranty from "Big Bob's Car Lot" down the street? I think this is the root answer to the driving force behind John's question . . . It seems to me that some people will buy on reputation alone, and pay just about anything for an item if they perceive no risk of loss . . .

Gottleib, Wolfe, and Shea know this - we gave them the power, and now they are using it quite well on us . . .

Brad

P.S. If we were in a Gottleib's, Wolfe's, or Shea's shoes, and we were selling these expensive items, would we be willing to say "if you ever discover this item is a reproduction, or falsely advertised by myself, bring it back to me for a full refund"? I'm not so sure I know enough about this stuff to take that risk, but am I willing to do so for much more money? This is the point of view from the other side of a never-ending spiral of madness . . . and it happens every day in Vegas too!

**John Pic** · 11-16-2007, 10:44 AM

I tell you what if you buy something high end from me after a few days its yours because the money will be gone..unless you want it back in monthly installments

There is alot of things to think about here too with the guarantee thing and thinking something is original because it came from a high end reputation. For years I watched people bring things to one of the big guns and years later these same guys are becoming the experts because "they learned from the big gun" but really how do they know what they saw was absolutely 100% untouched? I brought things to show one of the big guns years ago but quit doing it because he found flaw with everything that wasnt a common piece, when I brought him two items from a veteran that I had documetaion and photgraphs taken wartime of, and he still found fault I knew it was a game. I didnt show him the documentation. Thats why I dont post things for opinion but for show,unfortunately opinions always find thier way into a Lookee what I have thread.If you collect or buy anything SS its best to do alot of home work first. When I see a guy with an internet dealer site walk up with a riker full of terrible repros and want to know if any of its good I ask myself what that person is doing in this business.

**Bobwirtz** · 11-16-2007, 10:46 AM

Brad,

How did you know I own "Big Bob's Car Lot"? Well, it's close... it's "Honest Bob's Used Car Lot"!

Honest Bob

**John Pic** · 11-16-2007, 11:04 AM

You're kidding? Youre a used car salesman? Why dont you get into politics?

**phild** · 11-16-2007, 11:11 AM

I'll offer a few of my collecting maxims free of charge and learned thru the school of hard knocks in 40 years of collecting, studying, loving and hateing this hobby.

1. (The absolute most important thing!!) If you have to get or rely on another's opinion (or guarantee) on any item that you are considering buying, then you DON"t know enough to buy or deserve to own that item.

2. There is a high correlation between getting an opinion of an item being "good" or "bad" with whether or not the giver of the opinion is buying or selling the item in question. This is also true if the opinion giver is doing neither and ask "from who (or where) did you get this item and if the opinion giver may be competing for your money by offering similar items.

3. (last one one for now) On an item like an SS tunic (as opposed to a black wound badge for instance) you will get a wide range of opinions if examined by a good number of experienced collectors and dealers (even if all are "experts") Some examples will draw a wider range of opinions than others. The key thing is that you have to be satisfied and this means that you have to fully understand what you are looking at.

**pete** · 11-16-2007, 11:11 AM

.

I can remember my first experience in Ft Bragg by literally being chased down the street by a used car salesman on the All American Highway off post......lol........YOU LOOK LIKE THE KINDA GUY WHO WANTS AN UNTOUCHED TUNIC!!!!!!!!

**John Pic** · 11-16-2007, 11:26 AM

Here is my Medicine Man wisdom for those reading.

1.Guys..dont go spending $15-35000 for a tunic you have no documented proof of..pictures,papers,names,places,times etc. Its not worth it no matter how bad you want an item. There are lots of undocumented tunics out there available cheaper and without signs of tamper..now believe me that means almost nothing..not having signs of tamper only means you cant see the flaws. But dont spend that kind of money just because you cant see the flaws and its being sold by a big name.I think its time we stop paying people for thier name.

**N.C. Wyeth** · 11-16-2007, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by Bobwirtz View Post

Brad,

How did you know I own "Big Bob's Car Lot"? Well, it's close... it's "Honest Bob's Used Car Lot"!

Honest Bob

Wow - no pun was ever intended, but I think I'm going to buy a Lottery Ticket somewhere tonight!

Brad

**phild** · 11-16-2007, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by John Pic View Post

Here is my Medicine Man wisdom for those reading.

1.Guys..dont go spending $15-35000 for a tunic you have no documented proof of..pictures,papers,names,places,times etc. Its not worth it no matter how bad you want an item. There are lots of undocumented tunics out there available cheaper and without signs of tamper..now believe me that means almost nothing..not having signs of tamper only means you cant see the flaws. But dont spend that kind of money just because you cant see the flaws and its being sold by a big name.I think its time we stop paying people for thier name.

John, I would assume that you, given your background, would understand the elements of a Chain of Evidence or Chain of Custody. I have had basic training in these areas and I understand that it would be very hard if not impossible to find any WWII artifact that would be able to demonstrate this degree of integrity in a court of law (or anywhere else!). My point is that I think that documentation and pedigree is often way overrated. I feel the same way about paying huge premiums for an item that has been ajudicated as untouched by the annionted high priests of exotic 3rd Reich militaria. Untouched is a condition that is very subjective in the end and therefore one that I insist on making my own call and valuation of...as I feel that every collector must do.

I will also say that I am personally aware of several huge cons in this hobby (tens of thousands of dollars involved in each one) that have been pulled off but later exposed by some of the biggest names in this (some since deceased) that have involved mounds of documentation, living vets and period photos....and more....these cons were usually exposed on the careful study of the item and not the poor nature of the documentation....that exposure came afterward....In other words good documentation and pedagree is easier to fake that many of the items that they are used to support.

There are so-called big names being mentioned in some of the posts in this thread that I have had attempt (fancy story and pedigree ) to con me in decades past with what I proved were big lies on thier part and completely (ground up) fake SS uniforms...that's a fact. It explains why I am more than a little jaded when I see people putting so much stake in getting the blessing or condemnation of a large number of people in this hobby.

**Bobwirtz** · 11-16-2007, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by John Pic View Post

You're kidding? Youre a used car salesman? Why dont you get into politics?

I did... I ran for city council but my opponent out-lied me! He was a used car salesman too but for many more years than me, plus he had been in politics too. Good enough to sell used cars but not dishonest enough for politics!

"Honest Bob"

**John Pic** · 11-16-2007, 01:07 PM

You make some very valid observations and youre right. Even documentation can be faked. I was looking at a jacket attributed to a famous personality in a book last night. The author compairs it to one being worn in a photgraph and states it appears to be the same one. It is so obviously not the same one but the name its attributed to probably wouldnt have let the author use it unless he was forgiving of such error in judgement and willing to be a little blind.

With another uniform owned by the same person and also attributed to a famous personality a photo is offered, but the author was careful to just say it was a photo of the original owner "in uniform" not in the particular uniform shown..because the insignias on the Uniform being shown are obviously not those in the photograph.

Extreme caution and always ask while looking into thier eyes,if any part of a uniform is restored.Most are not real hardened criminals and cant resisit telling the truth or alude to the fact they just dont know for sure.

Honestly most of the vet stuff I aquired over the years had no documentation and I was so happy just to get a chance I never bothered to ask. Alot was through third party i.e. found by cops I worked with in an empty house or in a basement. I went to a call about old Handgrenades being found in a garage once by the new home owner..the box also contained WW1 U.S. uniforms and a couple German Helmets and badges. No documents though just my story to tell over time.

Recently a dealer sold a uniform and he was unaware of the backround story behind it..the lucky buyer new the story though and snatched it right up.No documentation and it wasnt sold with the story attached but on its merits..definately less than $15000 though.

**Federico Perez** · 11-16-2007, 01:26 PM

Very interesting thread!!!

I have been collecting for almost 20 years T.R. stuff, my collection is very small and modest but am very,very happy with what I have, some pieces come from dealers others come from collectors, each and everyone of the pieces is a dream come true and the SOLE judge and jury for the final dessision to buy each one of them came from.......me! Using as tools history books,original photos and albums,documentarys and of course this forum, I inspect every piece, look for clues(in the piece) and make comparations with known originals etc,etc.

What's all of the above have to do with this thread......for me this ALWAYS have been a hobby for the pure joy of it, the history one can learn,the research and the satisfaction of "owning" a little piece of that history, is my own personal first price, I will never(with god help) sell any of the pieces in my small collection, because I have waitend for the right one to come along for a long time, I enjoy looking at everyone of them in the "war room" after a long day at work, when reading a good WW2 campaing book or watching a documentary of the period, prcticaly you are surrounded by history......and that for me is priceless. BUT because of the times we live today this hobby have change focus, now it's an "investment" of a "flavor of the month" hobby, apart from a select group of dedicated collectors(and a LOT of them are here) theres no itentions of learning or reading, these type of collectors what instant satisfaction, they are willing to spend $12,000 dollars for a tunic or medal but don't want to "invest" $100 bucks in a good reference book, wich can guide them tru the shark infested waters of this hobby.

Because of this attitude is why we have the price war all a cross the diferent fields of collecting in the T.R. hobby, the priceless joy of collecting have become the$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ fundation and soul of this historical preservation of artifact....sad,very sad.

Fred

ps/PLEASE excuse my grammar!!!!

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