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Well I don't see the reasoning behind stating that we should not buy tunics that are $15-30K, even with documentation that can be ill-produced. The fact is, somebody is going to buy them and the dealers are then going to raise the price of the next one coming around. If everybody registered on this forum boycotted expensive tunics, etc. somebody will still come along and buy them. We are not going to make any difference! Some dealers may end up holding these pieces longer, or drop the price a little to nabb that one collector who wants it so bad he'll grab at a price reduction, regardless of how small. And I think the prices on this stuff will continue going up. Almost all of TR is now being collected. Whenever anybody writes a book about something, all of a sudden there is a noticable pick up in sales of those items, e.g. Waffenrocks! Usually generals and special pieces were grabbed up, but now dealers are offering everyday waffenrocks and they are being bought up. As far as Asia is concerned: years ago when the Yen was beating the crap out of the dollar, you couldn't find a German Cross in Gold to save your life. Economies go up and down and the pendulum has shifted and a great many of those DKiGs have come back across the Pacific. Maybe the bottom line here is: If you cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!
BobComment
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Or be "forced out" as a result of the "run-up"!Originally posted by Bobwirtz View Post
B. N. SingerComment
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Bob your shifting it to a money issue its not..the question is why does something that expensive sold by someone special make it real? Hell Ive paid premiums for items just because I wanted them...but the focus of this discussion is why do things like that go unquestioned in the public arena when they are sold by the Sacs 5th ave. or Tiffanys of the Militaria hobby despite having no provenance.
I remember it was once suggested that if I wanted a real SS officers tunic I should fork out the money and buy the tunic named to LAH officer Kurt Rinne, that was at the time in the possession of a big well known dealer and came out of the huge collection of so and so...the problem was that there is no documentation of a "Kurt Rinne" ever being in the LAH.So $25000 of my money would've gotten me a tunic from a notable dealer with no real proof of where it came from or who it belonged to.Are you saying that it wouldve been worth it because the prices will keep going up? Or are you saying they will go up to convince us that its worth it because youre worried that threads like these are a threat to the hobby investment minded folks?
Ill never pay those prices even for Himmlers tunic..if the prices were good then Demelhubers tunic for $65,000 would be in Wolfes den next to Gorings tunic not on the table of Gus V at a small militaria show.But I will stay in the kitchen because the stuff I do get is quite satisfying despite the lower cost.
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All good points and I agree. I think that the price ranges that you are addressing tend to transend all but a very few collectors and frankly I suspect that most of those are not really that sharp on the things that they buy...therefore they buy from dealers that tend to positon themselves as purveyors to the rich and famous. Another point that you bring up is how so many of the very high end items seem to stay with the same dealer(s) for so very long....years and years in many cases....I don't have an answer...is it just the high price or do these dealers really not want to sell many of these items...I don't know.Originally posted by John Pic View PostI remember it was once suggested that if I wanted a real SS officers tunic I should fork out the money and buy the tunic named to LAH officer Kurt Rinne, that was at the time in the possession of a big well known dealer and came out of the huge collection of so and so...the problem was that there is no documentation of a "Kurt Rinne" ever being in the LAH.So $25000 of my money would've gotten me a tunic from a notable dealer with no real proof of where it came from or who it belonged to.Are you saying that it wouldve been worth it because the prices will keep going up? Or are you saying they will go up to convince us that its worth it because youre worried that threads like these are a threat to the hobby investment minded folks?
Ill never pay those prices even for Himmlers tunic..if the prices were good then Demelhubers tunic for $65,000 would be in Wolfes den next to Gorings tunic not on the table of Gus V at a small militaria show.But I will stay in the kitchen because the stuff I do get is quite satisfying despite the lower cost.Comment
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Hello
IMO to many "investors" in this hobby and less and less collectors.
The " investors " keep telling us " the prices keep going and going and I can hear them ... buy that $35000 tunic Man , tomorrow it will be $40000 , yeah what a great investment !!!"
and the collectors keep complaining about it , simply because it is killing their hobby.
The price will keep rising as long as these "investors" stay in this hobby , until something happen and they decide to invest somewhere else.
Let them buy their $35000 tunic , it is their choice after all and their money !!!
Regards
P-Y
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Oupsss White screen !!!Comment
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John,Originally posted by John Pic View Post
I think you have changed the context of your original question - now you are connecting price/value with authenticity . . .
I think your original question dealt more with why would anybody pay such a substantial amount of money for the things we collect (and maybe somewhat more focused on the subject of buying from a "Dealer" versus a "Private" entity) - it did not have anything to do with authenticity . . .
Not trying to be coy, but you have now opened up a whole new can of worms . . .
BradComment
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Prices are high and that's OK. It just motivates me to make more. If seriously, I will never buy any tunic for more than 10 grand. That's it, no matter what it is. For me, there are plenty of other joys in life and for much less!
I think, prices for historical items never can be "too high". Interesting, exciting pieces should cost "big bucks" and will so. There are a lot of rich people in this world, much more than SS tunics. I bet one billioneer can easily buy all tunics from all collectors in the world. Wait, Russia is getting very strong nowadays, a lot of rich people there, and huge interest in WW2 by definition. They are already buying for "does-not-matter" how much. Other Eastern European countries are getting in it too. C'mon, just live with it. This staff is amazing and should cost a lot, a lot more than $2000 - "tunic" from Armani.Comment
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Kurt R.
John, If I where you I would check John Moore's Fuhrerlist "Kurt Rinne" is listed and in the LAH ............. I also think NARA has his file ?Originally posted by John Pic View PostBob your shifting it to a money issue its not..the question is why does something that expensive sold by someone special make it real? Hell Ive paid premiums for items just because I wanted them...but the focus of this discussion is why do things like that go unquestioned in the public arena when they are sold by the Sacs 5th ave. or Tiffanys of the Militaria hobby despite having no provenance.
I remember it was once suggested that if I wanted a real SS officers tunic I should fork out the money and buy the tunic named to LAH officer Kurt Rinne, that was at the time in the possession of a big well known dealer and came out of the huge collection of so and so...the problem was that there is no documentation of a "Kurt Rinne" ever being in the LAH.So $25000 of my money would've gotten me a tunic from a notable dealer with no real proof of where it came from or who it belonged to.Are you saying that it wouldve been worth it because the prices will keep going up? Or are you saying they will go up to convince us that its worth it because youre worried that threads like these are a threat to the hobby investment minded folks?
Ill never pay those prices even for Himmlers tunic..if the prices were good then Demelhubers tunic for $65,000 would be in Wolfes den next to Gorings tunic not on the table of Gus V at a small militaria show.But I will stay in the kitchen because the stuff I do get is quite satisfying despite the lower cost.
The rest I think you can figure out ???
jimtoncarComment
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Kurt Rinne
Well it is my understanding is that there is a picture of Kurt Rinne in that tunic. I believe a Wedding foto. In addition that tunic has been around along time and I am actually looking for it, now where is it and who has it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Comment
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Maybe John Moore will add something because my info actually came from him. Perhaps he found something afterward regarding Rinne.But Im sure that there are un-named examples for sale at over $20000..are they worth it because of who sells them or not?
As the can of Worms turns.
Didnt mean to make authenticity an issue but it plays in here in that when I post an example on a forum such as this that is un-named or with no provenance it always draws a comment from some non- believers or Doubt entertainers..sorry Bryon. Jim Toncar I think it was you who suggested to me that I should visit Wolfe and see what he had back then and I did,aside from named examples there were unnamed examples the least expensive being $16,500. I looked and I saw no difference it the quality from those offered by other dealers for less.Im just curious as to why one is more secure about a purchase of that caliber and more willing to fork out the huge bucks. If a stripped restored tunic can be bought for $18,500 im wondering what brings a person to pay such a price and what is he getting for his money? Back to the original question has anyone shelled out that kind of money for a lower ranking officer unattributed tunic or do most of the high end guys here have tunics for years and years that they paid very little for but hope to see the prices fly off the map?
Another strange thing is how these things exchange hands behind the tables and very few are ever posted on forums for showing...for reasons it took me several years to accept as valid and to jump on the bus myself and not share what I have obtained anymore.
Last edited by John Pic; 11-17-2007, 04:08 AM.Comment
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I don't know of too many people who will part with 50K in a collector field who do not consider the potential return when they sell, if they ever do. Its a bit discouraging that many people think that people who buy a large dollar item and so with an eye towarrds the furture are somehow not true collectors or knuckleheads. I dont collect as an investment, but I would be an idiot if I did not consider what al those dollars could otherwise buy, and look toward the possibility of what I will getout of the piece when I sell it. Im not "hording" things say, buying every army dagger I can because I believe they will go up up up, I collect what I like, pay more for items I simply want, but still am a realist that one day I will want to sell, and I dont want to simply piss the money away, if I did, I'd collect beanie babies or anything else mass produced in china. I buy what I like because it appeals to me, first and foremost, I buy the item because I desire to have it and it fits the collector niche I have carved out to collect. I also dont have a printing press in my basement, so the money does have a real tangiable value, if it didnt' collecting would be much easier.Last edited by Scott A. Hess; 11-17-2007, 07:37 AM.Comment
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who's name is valuable
It's all marketing man.
If a no-name collector sells a tunic. Okay, hope it's good. Many potential buyers won't know him. They don't know anything beyond what he's told him.
Now, a collector goes to a big name. Now he has a history that a collector can follow. He can search this forum and get a feel for how much experience he has in this stuff, and if other people trust him and have confidence.
The idealistic view that we should be our own expert is great. Yeah, I agree.
But real world says you can't be an expert at evertying. If you look at how varied peoples collections are in terms of the range of items they have bought, there is no way they have researched them to the depth "required".
Where you need a micrometer and a balance to determine the authenticity of a Knight's Cross, or a loupe to examine an SS decal, and four leaf clover to buy an SS tunic, you won't be perfect. Nobody is.
...and that's when paying a little extra for the established and well known rep of a dealer might be worth it.
It should be no big surprise, and as much as we complain, we've seen it in action for years.Comment
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