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**jacquesf** · 11-17-2007, 01:02 PM

I am aware of quite a few cases where tunics in this range (some highly questionable or all out fakes) gets offered or sold to collectors targeted beforehand for having the money but not necesarilly the knowlewdge or expertise. A cloak of secrecy then get drawn over these transactions. Someone earlier refered to quite a few well known persona being involved in this, I can confirm that. For any outsider it is like dealing with somekind of a collectors mafia. Jacques

**John Pic** · 11-17-2007, 01:29 PM

Scott I find your post interesting. When this hobby started right after the war people did it for fun,mostly kids who had exposure to WWII hero movies. Movies about history at that time were a big factor in marketing goods too, especially for Disney and MARX toy company. Disney made the Davey Crockett coonskin caps and MARX actually made plastic German helmets..anyway the hobby was like stamp collecting or figurine collecting,a way to pass the time.

The investor aspect must've started in the mid 70s because I could still buy a German tunic for $25 in 74 and a helmet for $10-15. I bought EKIIs for $5..then I went into high school and girls and sports took me away from the hobby. Then I went in the service and picked it up again..boy had things changed by 1982 when I got out.

But here is the thing Ive heard you more than once refer to people collecting "Beanie babies" as if that is demeaning compaired to Militaria..Im sure you attend shows and see the type of people who frequent them? How is Militaria more important when the only people who place importance on it are a specific group..Historical value? I think this is how we mostly justify our desire to collect things related to violent death direct or indirect. Herman Gorings uniform IS a historical item but even displayed in a museum the average person wouldnt pay $1000 for it.I see his car displayed at Casinos and watch hundreds pass by no interest whatsoever.But if a Rembrandt is on display, Im willing to bet more people would have interest, like King Tuts mummy, true historical artifacts.

So our hobby is no different than Beanie babies or Toy soldiers we have just made it more exclusive to the select handfull who collect it. I have tunics in far better condition and desireablity than some big names but couldnt sell them for $20000 at the time I sold them...although I heard a couple guys throwing my name around more recently so maybe my name will command a high price in the near future..or become the infamous symbol of all evil on the internet websites

That John Pic always stirring the pot.
Thanks for all the replys guys and an intersting discussion.

**John Pic** · 11-17-2007, 01:54 PM

Jacques just read your post..it is like that and its been going on for many years. The under the table deals with name tossing and authenticating is very intimidating hush hush top secret

**ww2collector** · 11-17-2007, 03:21 PM

I read the thread now and I think I find myself with a comment that Dr strangelove made which for me is so true..

There is another aspect of collecting that I would like to touch upon. Waffen SS insignia etc. is in such hot demand for many reasons some of which are not well understood even by the collectors. The obvious being the elite nature of the units, rarity and asthetic beauty of the uniforms. I think that for many people the issues are deeper. They involve living in a society that focuses on Capitalism and lacks Culture. There is no real Altruistic sense today, it is every one for his or her self and what did Brittany Spears say or do? Waffen SS items represent centuries of German Military tradition, devotion to duty and self-sacrifice not seen in todays world. Not to mention a real sense of community. Is it any wonder that people want to hold onto items that represent an ideal and system of beliefs in a World that no longer has any? I cannot explain exactly what I mean as my Doctorate is not in Social Psychology.

Also Mr Wirtz who made a comment about this not being a collectors community anymore since no research is being done.. I have to admit when I joined this forum I did the same but learned that with that great search function you can save some bucks... :-) anyway even though the prices continue to rise I still love and will never get tired of collecting TR items... call it an addiction.. the difficulty is to know your limits... somethings are just not meant for me to get :-)

A proud member of this forum

**Chad1** · 11-17-2007, 03:54 PM

research

I agree, not much research being done here.

Just alot of opinions about authenticity and talk about prices.

**judas** · 11-17-2007, 04:12 PM

well not shore were to start on this topic it seem's to have more then just one dimensions .you know like bobwirtz said he has shown thingings AND NICE AND REAL AND NO ONE GIVIES A **** YET SOME ONE PUTS UP EBAY CRAP AND TWO PAGES! LATER. WELL FILL IN THE BLANKS .john i have more then once said i would put up named ss tunics with the docs and in books if some one would help and yet no help and yet it seems most want to see ebay ****. once on here and i say once some one did help me put up a photo of A REAL SS GORGET AND YET LIKE BOB JACK ****.
now your point who pays this well i do not because i like to and can i am not rich and far from it but the exhange rate down here determines it i payed $9000 usa for one ss tunic it came to $15000.so does that mean i must have more money then brains because it cost me that far from it i brought it because its REAL NAMED YOU NAME IT AND I LOVE HAVEING IT .and black belt made some good points! seems to have lots of cash

as for named tunics well john moore helped me big time i gave him a name of one of my ss tunics he came back to me and said there was no officer of that name MY GOD THE TUNIC WAS REAL DID THE DEALER JUST MAKE AND ADE THE NAME .then a few days later he got back to me and found him

the reason he could not find him the first time was because he died in 19.38 and it tide ever think up just nice to this ss tunic and 3 of this guys tunics were found and his ring doc .
as for prise well i think it down here eny way it gets to apoint were the more it cost the lease people you have to buy it later .but i have been wroning thinking like that before .

yet john you made a point about some one who brought some top end stuff then there it is back up for sale a 6 weeks later i am with you on that if i could get my hands on some of it i.t would not see the lite of day who knows why this happins peoples lives change day to day some fastet then others some times for the good and some times not so good

**Scott A. Hess** · 11-17-2007, 04:28 PM

Hello John , I probably should clarify my frequent mention to "beanie babies", I in no way mean to demean the hobby or its importance amongst people who collect those items, my point, hopefully better said, is that I dont collect things that are mass produced in china, be they beanie babies, hot wheels, or the like. Most thing that are mass produced by the gazillion these days never end up as collectibles, hopefully that is a bit more understandable. I do realize what you said re the hobby, one of the first pieces I bought was in the early 70's, a single decal SS M40 for 20 dollars, those were certainly the days, and yes, a kid in high school could buy stuff for his lawn money, babysitting or mcdonalds money, it was really a hobby back then. It still is a hobby, however, with the prices out there, one can ill afford tomake a mistake when the item sells for 20K and not 20 dollars, in this respect, its certainly a business, which those who deal( as dealers) in the items understand perfectly well. I would imagine the first thing which crosses their mind when they decide to buy a piece is "what can I get for it", it has to be the first thing, its how they put food on the table. As a collector, I simply can't discount the same thought, what else could I do with the money, not only now but down the road. I saw a few really nice pairs of trousers I like, and also a wonderful italian espresso machine, for the 1300 dollars, right now, Im leaning towards the espresso machine, another pair of trousers, well, nice, but they will hang in the closet, thus in one sense tying up another 1300, meaning I have to come up with another 1300 to get the machine down the road. Anyway, the money otherwise spent on the "hobby" goes a long way towards also having a comfortable and enjoyable life.

**judas** · 11-17-2007, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Scott A. Hess View Post

Hello John , I probably should clarify my frequent mention to "beanie babies", I in no way mean to demean the hobby or its importance amongst people who collect those items, my point, hopefully better said, is that I dont collect things that are mass produced in china, be they beanie babies, hot wheels, or the like. Most thing that are mass produced by the gazillion these days never end up as collectibles, hopefully that is a bit more understandable. I do realize what you said re the hobby, one of the first pieces I bought was in the early 70's, a single decal SS M40 for 20 dollars, those were certainly the days, and yes, a kid in high school could buy stuff for his lawn money, babysitting or mcdonalds money, it was really a hobby back then. It still is a hobby, however, with the prices out there, one can ill afford tomake a mistake when the item sells for 20K and not 20 dollars, in this respect, its certainly a business, which those who deal( as dealers) in the items understand perfectly well. I would imagine the first thing which crosses their mind when they decide to buy a piece is "what can I get for it", it has to be the first thing, its how they put food on the table. As a collector, I simply can't discount the same thought, what else could I do with the money, not only now but down the road. I saw a few really nice pairs of trousers I like, and also a wonderful italian espresso machine, for the 1300 dollars, right now, Im leaning towards the espresso machine, another pair of trousers, well, nice, but they will hang in the closet, thus in one sense tying up another 1300, meaning I have to come up with another 1300 to get the machine down the road. Anyway, the money otherwise spent on the "hobby" goes a long way towards also having a comfortable and enjoyable life.

i take it then that nice smock mite come my way we can work some thing out with a espresso machine

**Robert H** · 11-17-2007, 04:46 PM

Shortcut, some tunics are such money worth and on the other side many aren't woth this money. Anyhow it is the buyers and sellers decision otherwise there is not much to add.

**Dr. Strangelove** · 11-17-2007, 04:58 PM

Espresso

Herr Hess, Well I would highly recommend the Swiss made Jura Capresso model Impressa E8. It is around a Thousand Bucks and makes killer Coffee, Espresso and several other drinks. Just the thing to keep you energized for long Forum sessions while researching a Badge that some shady Dealer just mailed you!

**John Pic** · 11-17-2007, 05:57 PM

I was thinking along the lines of a nice LCD big screen TV and an Xbox 360 to go with it as I shopped around today..I cant drink too much coffee.

You know whats really hillarious? When I start a thread like this and it gets so many responses and is read over 1000 times..then it never fails one or two people feel it necessary to tell everyone how unecessary my thread was and useless.Why bother if you feel that way ..why even read it..when you walk through the magazine isle at Wal-Mart and see the Tabloid with a JoJo the Bat-boy story do you pick it up and read it then write a letter to the editor to tell him what a waste it is? I dont read every post on these forums frankly the mind numbing "is this a real SS candle holder" threads bore me so I dont read or comment. My threads target people who like to discuss the aspects of the hobby and share common views with me..no other reason its a hobby and I like to write my thoughts down to see what others think as well.

**Dr. Strangelove** · 11-17-2007, 06:41 PM

Off Topic

And in my habit of staying off topic, have you seen the SS camo, chicken wire helmets and Runic SS NCO collars in those XBox360 Call of Duty games? Awesome. My favorite is when the SS NCO trys to knock you out with a K98k.

**John Pic** · 11-17-2007, 06:48 PM

Damn I cant wait to get one ! I love Call of Duty !! I tried to get my guy to steal a visor but he wouldnt pick it up.

**robertdmountfor** · 12-03-2007, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post

I think there is a good chance we are actually spoiled. We operate in a Sea swimming with quality memorabilia carried back by souvineer hungry GI's. The myth of the Waffen SS is not getting weaker, but stronger worldwide. And as the Dollar devalues and Bwaneks predictions about Asians entering the Market come to fruition I think prices will skyrocket. Imagine getting on your favorite dealers website and seeing Chinese as an option. If you think $30,000.00 for an awesome tunic is expensive hold onto your hat. The next ten years are really going to be crazy.

There is another aspect of collecting that I would like to touch upon. Waffen SS insignia etc. is in such hot demand for many reasons some of which are not well understood even by the collectors. The obvious being the elite nature of the units, rarity and asthetic beauty of the uniforms. I think that for many people the issues are deeper. They involve living in a society that focuses on Capitalism and lacks Culture. There is no real Altruistic sense today, it is every one for his or her self and what did Brittany Spears say or do? Waffen SS items represent centuries of German Military tradition, devotion to duty and self-sacrifice not seen in todays world. Not to mention a real sense of community. Is it any wonder that people want to hold onto items that represent an ideal and system of beliefs in a World that no longer has any? I cannot explain exactly what I mean as my Doctorate is not in Social Psychology.

When you sit around in your collecting room and you feel relaxed have you asked yourself why? When you can answer that than you will understand the manic drive for people to aquire these iitems. So if you do not understand the above paragraph just answer the question I pose in this one.

Dr Strangelove,

you are quite right. although many of our collecting fraternity colleagues know the real truth behind their collecting motives, it is often a secret one, known only to themselves, 'the truth that dare not speak its name', there are those, who, shall we say are 'blatant', and others seem to be in denial about the reasons they wish to be around these, still powerful ghosts of the TR. There can only really be one reason why we like things........we like them! end of.

**Robert H** · 12-03-2007, 08:34 PM

or buy a RZM helmet for 12-13k

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$15-35,000 SS tunics

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