Announcement

**N.C. Wyeth** · 11-15-2007, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by John Pic View Post

So why is it a tunic or cap from Wolfe or Shea without any proof is better and more valuable than one say from...a European source or an independant collector?Id love to hear reasons for this..do people really think a dealer name connection raises value even without proof?

John,

Maybe this is an idea - could it not be for reason of risk on the Buyer's part, and not necessarily for the actaul "value" of an item? Do people feel less risk when a "Dealer's" name is attached to an item, in lieu of an independant (and "unrecognized") collector? Let's say you buy an item from a "Dealer", and three years later that item is unquestionably identified as a forgery - do you have a better chance of being refunded from a "Dealer" or a "Collector"? It becomes much LESS of a risk to buy from a source that you have a better chance of not losing your money in a bad situation over. For some, I believe this may be the case for why it is easier to sell at a high price versus a low price . . . not that it's better coming from a Dealer, but that it's pawned as being much less "risky" to the Buyer . . . when you take the risk away from a purchase, it becomes easier for a Buyer to refrain from considering how much cash he is being parted with! It seems that some enjoy pushing the limitations of their respective reputation all for the end monetary return.

And on another note, let's say you want to sell that item you bought from a "Dealer" ten years down the road - if it's truly a legitimate item, having a lineage of coming from a "Dealer" with a good reputation (and one that would supposedly back his items with a refundable guarantee of authenticity) seems make people sleep better at night as well . . .

These are my thoughts on the issue, even if I don't agree with the whole idea behind them . . .

I guess Life is good if you have an untarnished reputation and you want to be a "Dealer" in this collecting business . . .

Brad

**davidSW** · 11-15-2007, 02:44 PM

What a great thread

For me the thrill of collecting has it rewards of escaping from work and relaxing however lately it has become more stressful than work. I say this because as mentioned demand has always stripped out the actual number of real items.

This leaves a great opportunity for people to adapt real items or completely build a fraudulent fake. So on this basis you will lean towards a supply from a good source, i.e. you hope the risk is taken away from loosing hard earnt cash. This will make you pay over the odds and become drawn into the selling game. This explained that you buy an item one day, get it home and it cools only to find that the same source has a better piece arriving the next week. Within no time at all your in a dilemma, sell the item back at an agreed loss and buy the next piece at a price you agree. This can go on and on. So we can see how people can make a good living out of it.

However one day circumstances change and you need to sell, this is when the truth will appear in front of you and only then. Saying all this i cant get rid of this addition of history and the German armed forces being such powerful problem in such a short time.

This is the other side of the coin I do believe in the correct items SS or not there is a distinctive area of investment. This will change with moods and the exchange rate. So in conclusion I have to say the collecting for me is the excitement of history and when it has to go I hope I haven’t wasted money that would be regarded as stupid. Or even getting a bit more back would be a bonus and expected.

**Bobwirtz** · 11-15-2007, 03:06 PM

This is the way I used to think about my aviation limited-edition prints with signatures of fighter aces, etc. I always bought the prints for the artwork because I loved it, not because of the investment in the signatures. Hell I collect the signatures too, but prefer them on photos, not prints. If the value of the print doesn't go up, it doesn't matter because I can still enjoy the artwork on my wall. I used to think that way about my militaria collection too but in the last 10 years it's become more of an investment because of the prices one has to pay. I'm thinking in terms of selling it for retirement purposes so I want my stuff to continue upward in value. I think this 'hobby' has drawn a lot of 'investor' type people into it and the whole thing has changed. How many freaking threads do we have every week about metal cap insignia? These questions are coming from the investors because they're not interested in doing any homework. It's easier to ask somebody on the forum --- you get your answer quicker. They don't want to do their homework. I'll bet just about every original, reproduction and fake metal cap set has been posted on the forum at one time... Hell, probably a dozen fakes that haven't been made yet too. But these people will NOT use the SEARCH function and do their own research... it's easier and faster to ask somebody! So in reality, it's not a collector community anymore, it's an investment community. It invaribly happens to everything that is HOT and PROFITABLE. But I'm not going to continually whine about it. When I find something righteous and it fits my collection, I will buy it if possible. If it's not, then it sees my back as I walk away.

As far as the Demelhuber grouping, I don't think that Gus really wants to sell it. I was told that it was there last year for $40K and this year the price jumped to $65K. I think he wants to keep it but if somebody with more money than brains comes up and puts his asking price on the table, he'll take it. I would love to have that grouping too but it's beyond my means, same as a lot of the award documents that Hardin-Wolfe are selling. On those I don't even bother asking their prices.

Bob

**John Pic** · 11-15-2007, 03:50 PM

Quite a stunning uniform, I was told he is selling it for someone else though by a thrid party?

I talked to Gus a little about the Aufklarungs officer tunc he once owned that was in Mike Beavers volume 2..another tunic that just appeared out of a yard sale no proof/paper work attached except word of mouth yet sold for $7000 big ones because it was found by Harper Noehren. A tiny summer weight in Russian canvas showing relatively little wear a neat little tunic though Ive inspected it in hand once...did anyone ever notice it has Artillery "A" cyphers on it and not the oddball "a" that looks like a 21 normally found on Aufklarungs boards?

**Bobwirtz** · 11-15-2007, 04:00 PM

The impression I got from Willi is that Gus owned it. Willi told me the history of it, that Walter Hombach got it from Bob Alexander but really didn't want it... he collected Waffen-SS enlisted tunics. He offered it to Willi for $20K but was killed in a motorcycle accident before anything could happen on it. Willi brought the Demelhuber insignia grouping to the MAX Show and showed it to Gus. He said for 20 minutes, 50% of the Demelhuber Collection was together... missing the greatcoat, which Dave Delich has, and Demelhuber's Totenkopf Honor Ring and a musical march written for him. The ring and march have disappeared --- don't know where they went.

Bob

**Chad1** · 11-15-2007, 04:21 PM

ideals

There is nothing wrong with thinking of collecting as an investment. Why not? Isn't making a buck the American way?

Granted, it's not necessarily the best investment, but we all expect to make something when we sell. Just look at the e-stand.

FEW sell for what they paid. Very few.

When I started, it was just for enjoyment. Now it's more complicated. To get what I want I have to lay out serious cash. Nothing wrong with that, but I'd be a fool to just throw it away. So I do consider how difficult it would be to sell it down the line.

As much as I like the history, this hobby isn't my identity, and when the day comes that I want my "hobby money" to go somewhere else, I will smile with a big wad of cash in my hand and feel good that I just made some other guy's day.

**John Pic** · 11-15-2007, 04:30 PM

"Nothing wrong with that, but I'd be a fool to just throw it away. So I do consider how difficult it would be to sell it down the line. "

Exactly so why buy anything that has no real proof except it came from a Prestigious dealer?

Funny the stories of the "little old closet seamstress" hired to put stuff together for the European dealers..funny in that it is known some of the top American dealers have a "little old seamstress" as well, Ive met a couple of them they were men and not that old but good at what they do.

**knopf** · 11-15-2007, 05:34 PM

Shea can be happy that he lives in the us. So his chap-cap is nice and real without any inspektion. For me this is a red flag.

**pete** · 11-15-2007, 05:47 PM

.

No doubt in my mind that things are being made up, somtimes it is very obvious, sometimes not. Its nice to see that some people have the oppurtunity to inspect so many peices in hand and also not be protective about their findings on here esp with the prices some people are setting these days. I dont think alot of these guys will get away with this forever: Like they say, You can fool me, but you cant fool the mother.

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**ErichS** · 11-15-2007, 06:10 PM

I think that top dealers like W&H buy back top quaulity items from collectors such as top shelf uniforms and medals. I purchased a Blood Order from Steve that he had owned three different times since 1968 so these things tend to go home again.

**Dr. Strangelove** · 11-15-2007, 07:02 PM

Well Seriously

That is a lot of Blood out of 1 order !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I respect no Dealer, no Name and no lifetime guarantee. I only respect the item. And whose life are they talking about mine or theirs?

**ErichS** · 11-15-2007, 07:43 PM

It' a good one Doctor!

**Matthew S.** · 11-15-2007, 08:03 PM

How much is a particular piece of militaria worth? It is all quite simple. A double decaled Heer paratrooper helmet is WORTH a few dollars in scrap metal. The fact that collectors will pay 20K for one has nothing to do with it’s worth but rather with its desirability. Collectors will pay out the ying-yang for one because it is perceived as being rare or unique – its value. But there is a certain breaking point to the value/worth argument. Bwanek1 had a very good point about the Chinese and Russkies (or for that matter, the Silicon Valley folks) with money to burn paying more than any collector here could ever afford for certain pieces, thus keeping them largely out of the hands of normal collectors. But these people are far more inclined to procure these items because of the desirability factor or because they seem like good investments. When collecting militaria first took off as a serious hobby back in the 70s, most collectors were drawn to the hobby because of the historical nature these items held (Or so I have been told. I wasn’t exactly alive back then). The historical impetus gets obliterated when the value of relatively available pieces exceeds the cost of a new luxury car. This type of collector (the poorer one) will eventually begin to throw their collective hands up in exacerbation. Eventually, the flash-in-the-pan desirability that caused prices to rocket in the first place will subside and those super-rich who purchased them will begin to look for new interests. Somebody is going to have to be found to take them off their hands. The other super-rich who can pay what they paid will not be inclined to do so. The historical-oriented collector would be more than willing to own said pieces... just not with the original price tag attached. Supply won’t change while demand will decline and take prices with it. That is a simple law of economics. The same thing happens all the time in the art world where Artist so-and-so suddenly becomes a sensation. Beautiful women want to sleep with him while the super-rich want to get a hold of one of his pieces at any cost. Next thing you know, the craze has subsided and his paintings are being unloaded in the art world’s version of the Wal-Mart bargain bin. My outlook is that the price of SS militaria and other ultra-desirable pieces will remain very high for a while and probably climb even more… but eventually the prices are going to start falling.

**John Pic** · 11-15-2007, 08:33 PM

I wouldnt doubt that they will if not already start dropping and or leveling off as I watched a tray full of outstanding cufftitles just sit untouched at a medium sized show last weekend.

I was a "Combat" collector I loved the old TV shows and the movies of the 40s,50s,60s,70s I played with soldiers I played dress up with surplus gear as a kid and had make believe wars with the neighborhood kids.I love this stuff til this day and the inflated values cramp my style. I honestly hope prices fall and the shows will grow again to a bunch of guys who just love this stuff instead of all the pretentious money flashing investor minded types trying to make it like collecting fine Art or Jewelry.

**bwanek1** · 11-15-2007, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by John Pic View Post

I wouldnt doubt that they will if not already start dropping and or leveling off as I watched a tray full of outstanding cufftitles just sit untouched at a medium sized show last weekend.

I do not see the decline of the shows as any indicator of a decline in interest in the hobby; I simply see it as a sign of the changing times and the modern electronic marketplace. Ten or twenty years ago, shows were where we had to go to see and buy items beyond our local dealers and flea markets. Now, buyers can see what sellers have for sale around the world without setting foot outside their homes. Few bargains are to be had that way, but people are willing to pay for the convenience. Plus, unless the show is local, the cost of travel offsets the better prices one might find at a show (if there are actually better prices to be had).

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