Hello Gary,
You don't sound rude at all since you are explaining your own opinion which I deeply respect. It is very fortunate humans are not all alike! It is very true I do not like lists (any lists) dealing with what was faked and/or what was not (yet). I certainly do prefer lists saying which original markings had been referenced (with evidence) and that's all. Just providing some readers the feeling whatever marking could be the safe harbor can be a disaster, even if it was right a time of first printing. I certainly agree that close than anything has been faked as of today, even if some are still not, which is due to extreme rarity of the original specimen or lack of knowledge from the faker. But having on the same page a listing about what is not faked (or believed it is not (yet)) and another listing dealing with forgeries will provide a somehow safe harbor for some collectors and a nice idea outlet about what can be the next production for fakers reading the post as well.
Yes, a lot of collectors are naive, and a lot are not. The second kind learnt, the first get robbed all the time and yes, even some will start buying based on what they believe could be a safe harbor, like a list for example. Their fault, you will tell me, but maybe not all the time. You are very right when you say study by all means but sometimes it starts by buying a book or two on the subject. How many books were write after checking 100% the accuracy of the information? Not a lot even if there is fortunately some. So, next step is to realize the errors printed in the book(s). Having stuffs direct from vets and study them? If you are new to this hobby, how can you do that? Most vets are dead now or do no longer have anything in their hands. So, another door closed which was opened for old timers. Internet? You know as much as I this way of communication have the best AND the worst. Usually, here again the advanced collector will have the skills to be able to select the better source of information, but what about the novice? So, yes, lots of new collectors will become naive or will totally stop to collect after all this, but it is not especially their fault and if we do our best to prevent this we will achieve something nice. How? Just basing anything said on evidence and don't be afraid to say "I don't know". You are right, I did a long way with SS Belts Buckles, but this is due because I did not accept ANYTHING wrote or said before as granted. Any piece of information I certified so far was based on strict evidence after spending time trying to confirm the accuracy of what was previously written. Surprising what we can find and how many are just repeating mistakes made by others. ONLY evidence is the start of the safe harbor, all the rest is just personal preference, and this is why I previously posted the above link. BH is deeply respected by many as having strong knowledge in SS memorabilia (you are right, I do have knowledge or interest only in SS belt buckles myself so I let readers determine if it is right or wrong) and took responsibility in posting what was supposed to be a fake eagle labeling it as ORIGINAL. If he did such it is because he certainly thought to be positive in his feelings. I once more leave readers/collectors to choose who is right, who is wrong based on the arguments shown but as long no evidence is given, it will remains personal preference, not evidence. You are very right to keep valid only YOUR opinion since there is no evidence to make you change. But probably BH did not change his.
It is true that SS Buckles follow their own pattern and history, but remains one thing; they are related to SS components. When A. Hitler sent an order to all makers in Lüdenscheid forbidding the use of nickel silver to produce anything, if I do not expect to find a SS buckle made in nickel silver after this date, I do not expect to find a SS cap eagle neither. When I read another order sent by the RS-SS forbidding to produce more that what was strictly ordered, under confiscation of goods, I do not expect to find more, SS Buckles or cap eagles. Even if it is well known that disobedience to orders were rather common with the SS, remains it was on personal level, not dealing with mass production. Belt buckles were made by same makers than metallic insignias.
You are very right when you say that documentation will not prove the item in hands is original, and it never did, but it has the benefit to say such unheard item in hands has an evident source. So, such item goes from the full "No, it is not!" to the "Maybe", but as you said, that's it.
Before reading this thread, I always thought original SS cap eagles from the pre war years could be marked like eagles made by competitors as M1/xx (M1/17 for Assmann). You are right, I do not know them and I never paid attention to them before but at least it was very logical. The only CERTITUDE was that Assmann had such SS cap eagle in his catalog. Now, I am paying attention and what do I have?
Two things: M1/17 is found only on what is believed to be fakes (and you can be very right - I even told you that it was enforced with records of one of my reliable diggers). Only personal feelings
Second: Original and fake Assmann SS cap eagles marked RZM 155/36 SS. Originals are so far based on nothing (at least for me - please don't ask me to take this close up photo as evidence when even you and Rick are by now questioning them). I also have to add that NO SS eagles marked RZM 155/36 SS were found by the same digger neither). So, here also, personal feelings.
So, please tell me where are the SS eagles produced by Assmann (I took the liberty to assume he was producing them - not reselling them, and that the RZM 155/36 SS eagle is original) from 1936 to 1943, or even from 1936 to 1941 (you are right I forgot the 499/41 which leaves us only with 4 full empty years instead of five)? Looks like this question is avoided.
So, at least this question answered by collectors having a greater experience with metallic SS cap eagles will be of great help if I want one day collect metallic SS cap eagles. I am sorry, but you are very right, I do not have any possibility to prove anything, one way or the other, except this eagle is on an original sales catalog, but was expecting someone could be able to bring me something strong enough.
I deeply agree, if evidence is no longer what is needed in this hobby - or if we are no longer able to provide it - better quit working on the subject of Third Reich collecting and leave new collectors alone.
I am also sorry if I do not provide sometimes all documentation available but what I confidentially provided in the past to some members by private email was posted later as their own homework. So you will understand I now select what I have to say privately and/or publicly. My research, whatever it could be, is made with my own time and money.
Just only my point and the line of attitude I try to preserve for the best or the worst. Anyone is welcome to differ and I do not think it is rude to do so.
You can count on me, as soon as I have something new and somehow more reliable on my eyes dealing with Assmann SS cap eagles, readers of this thread will be the first to know. In the meantime, an answer to my sole question is this latest post will be definitively appreciated. That is it for now.
Best Regards
You don't sound rude at all since you are explaining your own opinion which I deeply respect. It is very fortunate humans are not all alike! It is very true I do not like lists (any lists) dealing with what was faked and/or what was not (yet). I certainly do prefer lists saying which original markings had been referenced (with evidence) and that's all. Just providing some readers the feeling whatever marking could be the safe harbor can be a disaster, even if it was right a time of first printing. I certainly agree that close than anything has been faked as of today, even if some are still not, which is due to extreme rarity of the original specimen or lack of knowledge from the faker. But having on the same page a listing about what is not faked (or believed it is not (yet)) and another listing dealing with forgeries will provide a somehow safe harbor for some collectors and a nice idea outlet about what can be the next production for fakers reading the post as well.
Yes, a lot of collectors are naive, and a lot are not. The second kind learnt, the first get robbed all the time and yes, even some will start buying based on what they believe could be a safe harbor, like a list for example. Their fault, you will tell me, but maybe not all the time. You are very right when you say study by all means but sometimes it starts by buying a book or two on the subject. How many books were write after checking 100% the accuracy of the information? Not a lot even if there is fortunately some. So, next step is to realize the errors printed in the book(s). Having stuffs direct from vets and study them? If you are new to this hobby, how can you do that? Most vets are dead now or do no longer have anything in their hands. So, another door closed which was opened for old timers. Internet? You know as much as I this way of communication have the best AND the worst. Usually, here again the advanced collector will have the skills to be able to select the better source of information, but what about the novice? So, yes, lots of new collectors will become naive or will totally stop to collect after all this, but it is not especially their fault and if we do our best to prevent this we will achieve something nice. How? Just basing anything said on evidence and don't be afraid to say "I don't know". You are right, I did a long way with SS Belts Buckles, but this is due because I did not accept ANYTHING wrote or said before as granted. Any piece of information I certified so far was based on strict evidence after spending time trying to confirm the accuracy of what was previously written. Surprising what we can find and how many are just repeating mistakes made by others. ONLY evidence is the start of the safe harbor, all the rest is just personal preference, and this is why I previously posted the above link. BH is deeply respected by many as having strong knowledge in SS memorabilia (you are right, I do have knowledge or interest only in SS belt buckles myself so I let readers determine if it is right or wrong) and took responsibility in posting what was supposed to be a fake eagle labeling it as ORIGINAL. If he did such it is because he certainly thought to be positive in his feelings. I once more leave readers/collectors to choose who is right, who is wrong based on the arguments shown but as long no evidence is given, it will remains personal preference, not evidence. You are very right to keep valid only YOUR opinion since there is no evidence to make you change. But probably BH did not change his.
It is true that SS Buckles follow their own pattern and history, but remains one thing; they are related to SS components. When A. Hitler sent an order to all makers in Lüdenscheid forbidding the use of nickel silver to produce anything, if I do not expect to find a SS buckle made in nickel silver after this date, I do not expect to find a SS cap eagle neither. When I read another order sent by the RS-SS forbidding to produce more that what was strictly ordered, under confiscation of goods, I do not expect to find more, SS Buckles or cap eagles. Even if it is well known that disobedience to orders were rather common with the SS, remains it was on personal level, not dealing with mass production. Belt buckles were made by same makers than metallic insignias.
You are very right when you say that documentation will not prove the item in hands is original, and it never did, but it has the benefit to say such unheard item in hands has an evident source. So, such item goes from the full "No, it is not!" to the "Maybe", but as you said, that's it.
Before reading this thread, I always thought original SS cap eagles from the pre war years could be marked like eagles made by competitors as M1/xx (M1/17 for Assmann). You are right, I do not know them and I never paid attention to them before but at least it was very logical. The only CERTITUDE was that Assmann had such SS cap eagle in his catalog. Now, I am paying attention and what do I have?
Two things: M1/17 is found only on what is believed to be fakes (and you can be very right - I even told you that it was enforced with records of one of my reliable diggers). Only personal feelings
Second: Original and fake Assmann SS cap eagles marked RZM 155/36 SS. Originals are so far based on nothing (at least for me - please don't ask me to take this close up photo as evidence when even you and Rick are by now questioning them). I also have to add that NO SS eagles marked RZM 155/36 SS were found by the same digger neither). So, here also, personal feelings.
So, please tell me where are the SS eagles produced by Assmann (I took the liberty to assume he was producing them - not reselling them, and that the RZM 155/36 SS eagle is original) from 1936 to 1943, or even from 1936 to 1941 (you are right I forgot the 499/41 which leaves us only with 4 full empty years instead of five)? Looks like this question is avoided.
So, at least this question answered by collectors having a greater experience with metallic SS cap eagles will be of great help if I want one day collect metallic SS cap eagles. I am sorry, but you are very right, I do not have any possibility to prove anything, one way or the other, except this eagle is on an original sales catalog, but was expecting someone could be able to bring me something strong enough.
I deeply agree, if evidence is no longer what is needed in this hobby - or if we are no longer able to provide it - better quit working on the subject of Third Reich collecting and leave new collectors alone.
I am also sorry if I do not provide sometimes all documentation available but what I confidentially provided in the past to some members by private email was posted later as their own homework. So you will understand I now select what I have to say privately and/or publicly. My research, whatever it could be, is made with my own time and money.
Just only my point and the line of attitude I try to preserve for the best or the worst. Anyone is welcome to differ and I do not think it is rude to do so.
You can count on me, as soon as I have something new and somehow more reliable on my eyes dealing with Assmann SS cap eagles, readers of this thread will be the first to know. In the meantime, an answer to my sole question is this latest post will be definitively appreciated. That is it for now.
Best Regards
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