KM Small Coffee Cup and Soup Bowl

[David Fettes]

For a quick example, this shows that three different companies used the same pre war Luftwaffe transfer.

[Loke]

..ALL original German made canteen plates and bowls are 23cms across..

I completely disagree. This red-striped for higher officer plates diameter is precise 21,0 cm. According to yet another one of your statements it can not be an original...
Well, let me tell you: It is.

Best regards,

mit herzlich Grüss aus Norvegen,

Loke

[David Fettes]

Let me point out I said if the plates / bowls are OVER 23cms they are fake.

If your KM plate is under that size and looking at the stamp it is a one looker original then thats just fine by me.

However LARGER (and I mean a lot larger, as stated, sometimes 30cms) they are wrong.

[Loke]

... if the plates / bowls are OVER 23cms they are fake...

I have these two items. Some would call them plates, others might call them trays. The diametre of each is precisely 30 cm. Would you describe them as fakes, and if not fakes due to the well performed stamps, would you still claim that the stripes or rings, in red and yellow/dark blue(blackish) are there purely for decoration purposes?

Best regards,

Loke

[Diver]

To my diver friends around the world!
If you dig up German porcelain from inside of a german shipwreck, or find it on the seabed where the Germans navy have been. If the barrels are over 23 cm, you just have to throw it back into the ocean. This is because it now turns out that the Germans have planted false porcelain around to fool us ....!
30 years of collection of objects on the seabed got a real smack now!!
Since recent research from a small village in England shows that almost everything we find is bogus. But the Germans were very clever, they were so conducted that they had hatched this plan with fake porcelain under the war, to break the morale of the collectors 70 years later
The best greetings from a diver who has dived on the German naval bases and shipwrecks from Kirkenes (Norway) in the north, and down...!

[Stason]

David you aren't right.

I collect porcelain to the krigsmarena more than 10 years.

The ware to the krigsmarena is various. And plates of 31 cm, are both under first courses, and under the second.

Yours faithfully, Stas.

[glaser]

Can I ask you Loke, what are your thoughts on the photograph I posted showing plain coffee cups, yet the link and table shown (which I am assuming comes from a similar list that Stason showed) says these should have a coloured band.

David
they used the items just below the lines that you have colored with yellow: TASSEN! 38

[glaser]

Black / silver border does not exist.
I will explain the black / gold rim changes color depending on the angle at which the photo is made.

Stason: you are absolutely right about this!

[glaser]

I am trying to be helpful here.

ALL original German made canteen plates and bowls are 23cms across. Any "German" made canteen plate or bowl that is a larger size (except for the oval meat plates) are fakes.


As I said "Study which eagle designs go with each manufacturer" what part of that did you not understand? The image you showed, shows the standard Wehrmacht eagle in combination with a KM M, and the unique KM eagle and the M. Both are correct for KPM for 1942, both in design and colour.

As I said before it is the details that matter.

David
Can you explain why you state that KM plates over 23 cm are fakes, and can you back this up with evidence please?

[glaser]

david you aren't right.

I collect porcelain to the krigsmarena more than 10 years.

The ware to the krigsmarena is various. And plates of 31 cm, are both under first courses, and under the second.

Yours faithfully, stas.

+1

[Edelweisse]

Hi:

Since I started this KM Porcelian thread....and I have what appears to be a lot of porcelian Subject Matter Experts (SMEs). I posted some pictures of some porcelian that has a firm/company logo with a rocket and "BR". What company/firm is this?

Can you SMEs help????????????

[David Fettes]

Hello all,

I would like to explain why I was so wrong on a few points:-

1:- I had assumed that the porcelain canteen ware would be in the same regualtion sizes as the Heer, Luftwaffe, Waffen SS, Polizei, DAF and RAD items. With hundreds (and I mean hundreds) of plates and bowls passing through my hands each year, mainly Luftwaffe and Heer, I had assumed I a good idea of what I was talking about, once again wrong with regard to the Kriegsmarine!

The discovery of larger wartime produced plates, much larger then the standard 23cm plates for the other services, was unknown to myself, mainly because I do not come across Kriegsmarine items very often.

I knew that the coffee pots were a different shape due to having a wider base for use at sea, indeed these are based on the early RAD coffee pots which I have had in my own collection before.

2:- The coloured bands on Kriegsmarine porcelain, I had assumed where just like the bands found on DAF items, pure derocation.
I had assumed that the list provided was a post war creation to fleece more cash from tne pockets of collectors, as these dealer myths have been seen before and have been debunked, over the years, one by one.
Although the listings do not show any evidence of a wartime date, I will accept this to be true, based on the revelation, shown above in post 1, that Kriegsmarine items are in a class of their own and outside the norm of the other services canteen ware.

All this goes to show that one should never assume anything with regard to 3rd Reich collecting, be it Kriegsmarine or any other branch of the NSDAP war machine.

I will raise the white flag of defeat and move on, unhappy that my assumtions were incorrect but at the same time, I have learned new things in the past 24 hours, so all in all, it has turned out to be quite a interesting education.

I will say, however, that what I said earlier still applies:-

The backstamps will be transfer printed, the detail in them is too fine to be stencil painted.

Study your items carefully, know which manufacturer used what style of eagle and for each year. Some never changed, some did. Some used the same eagle transfer print as other firms (either supplied by a third party or printed by collaboration.)

Never assume an item is bad without thoroughly examining it first. Hold it to the light at a slight angle, feel the backstamp, look for imperfections.

Last but not least:-

I would like to thank the original poster Edelweisse and then Loke, Stason, Eduardo, Christian and Glaser for their contributions to this thread.

A lot has been shown, new documents posted and wonderful porcelain items displayed for all to see.

With no wish to be embarrassed any further, I will withdraw myself from the battlefield and wish all those who remain, good luck and happy porcelain hunting.


David.




.

[Loke]

One bit of the puzzle might still be missing. The mighty Beamte Porzellan.

Not have ever seen the color dark-blue and silver for the Beamter, have you seen it?, can you show any?

black / silver border doesn't exist.

...I have actually held an item in my hands...

It must have been six years ago. A Kriegsmarine sugar box with lid was being presented for an auction here in Norway. The auction did not turn out well for me, as some other collector obviously was willing to pay more than me. Shortly after, I was able to see his collection of Kriegsmarine porcelain. a superb collection, I was quite overwhelmed. Now, for some reason i remembered this sugar box as having the black/silver stripes. Unfortunately, this was not the case. I contacted the owner yesterday, for possibly having a photo for this thread, but the stripes were black/yellow. I doubt the color has changed :-/ Sorry guys.

However, I did refind a photo once ripped from some italian auctionsite, if I NOW remember correctly. A cup, with black/silverish stripes. Could this be it?

Regards,

Loke

[Stason]

black / silver border doesn't exist.

only black / gold 1934-1939, black / yellow 1940-1942

Here lighting is important. On one photo it is black / silver on other it is black / gold. But a border it is black / gold actually.

[Loke]

black / silver border doesn't exist

Best regards,

Loke