KM Small Coffee Cup and Soup Bowl

[glaser]

KPM =Krister Porzellan Manufaktur

[John R.]

Very informative and interesting threads and I think everybody did a great job in the process.

I have waited a bit since I wanted to provide some context to naval porcelain as what you see with German porcelain is almost identical in what you would observe in the messes aboard many nations' warships of that era.

My family has served in the US navy almost continuously from 1916 on and I have personally eaten many times in Admiral's, Captain's, Officer's, Chief Petty Officer, and Enlisted messes starting in the mid-1950's.

I have also had that cup of coffee on the bridge of a destroyer in raging seas so to speak, so can address that also.

You absolutely cannot bring into the understanding of these messes conventions of today. They are not applicable, nor is it applicable to compare with the Army, Air Force, Railway, or other services of the day to the Navy. The Navies of the world were usually formal in regards to dining for officers, very formal.

An officer in the German Navy would have no problem eating in the wardroom of a British, American, or Brazilian warship. All would be more or less the same in etiquette. Etiquette is the operative word, it was in place, it was observed, it was enforced.

So attached here are some examples of US Navy porcelain. You will note Admiral's service, Captain's service, Officer's service, Junior Officer, and Warrant Officer service and the table ware of an enlisted man.

I will continue after you have been able study these photos.

I know it will not make sense from today's world view of everybody being the same, but that view is applicable to today, not then. Everybody was not the same and table settings, uniforms, sleeping space, stewards, were all part of the naval service and traditions.

First, Admiral porcelain. Same exact quality of porcelain as the other officers.

John

[John R.]

Rear Admiral and Captain's service.

[John R.]

Officers and Junior Officers.

[John R.]

Warrant and sailor.

[John R.]

Sailor plates were soon changed to metal trays by the way as far more time saving but the big white mugs were kept as long as I can remember.

[John R.]

Are the German colored rings and the various designs on US Navy porcelain impractical? Sure they were, but that had nothing to do with it, until recently, when such tableware was done away with in the US Navy for a generic plate. Too bad, tradition lost, but conventions have changed over time.

Just look at the uniform changes in the US Navy to make everybody the same basically. However, we are talking about days before, long before, such social conventions were adopted in society at large.

Of course, not all would have been used on every single warship class. It depended on the size of the ship as to which plates they would carry. By 1955 I would say most ships primarily carried the plate with the blue anchor for all officers. However, on a battleship, they had enough officers of different rank categories to make use of the different plate designs in their own respective messes.

There was variation, a lot of variation, from even what I have posted here, but these are the basic ones, but there were also senior officer generic gold embossed plates used. Sizes did change, the emblems could be slightly different depending on when you are talking about.

In regards to plate sizes, you had lunch size and dinner (supper) sized plates. The lunch plates looked exactly the same but were slightly smaller.

So, what happened if the Captain, on say a cruiser and above asked another officer to eat with him in his own mess? Of course you ate off his plates. You did not carry your own plates with you. Or, if the Captain was invited by the President of the Officer's Mess to dine in the wardroom, he ate off officer plates, not his own plates.

If a Chief Petty Officer (rarely) invited an officer to eat in his mess, you ate off the Chief Petty Officer plates and drank from their glasses and mugs of course.

Now, to the sailors, this whole plate thing was a source of great amusement and comment and those sailors selected to become officers, either as line officers or warrant officers, would inevitably be told by their sailor friends that they first had to go to "knife and fork school" before they could eat in the wardroom. Actually, not far from the truth.

I collect US Navy tableware, also Queen Mary (1950's) and SS United States tableware. On the big cruise ships of the day, they had different plate design for first class, third class and cabin class. It was a maritime tradition of the day, common usage, to be expected, and not solely applicable to navies.

John

[John R.]

This is a variation of the senior officer porcelain that replaced the flag porcelain and also an example of a current (I think) US Navy standard porcelain officer's plate which replaced all the examples I have posted above.

So basically, they had plates for senior officers with just the Navy seal and that plate became the standard for all plates in the US Navy, doing away with the blue ringed plates.

To address the ship lurching through waves at night, depended on the Captain whether he drank out of his own coffee cup or had a sailor mug.

Most used the sailor mug and the quartermasters had the mugs on the bridge. The Captain's would have "CO" on it in black paint. Everybody else, just took a mug and used it.

John

[John R.]

And a shot of a current day US Navy wardroom (note the US Navy seal on the plates) and a recreated wardroom table in museum ship USS Texas.

John

[John R.]

I think the KM ringed plates are very interesting and very collectible. I really did not understand the actual meaning of the rings until this thread. Thanks to everybody that contributed, challenged, responded and posted without getting into a fit about it.

Perfect example of how a forum should work.

John

[John R.]

By the way, a small part of my Queen Mary plate and crystal collection. My interest in such porcelain far pre-dates my interest in KM.

Never get a chance to show it, but here you go.

These would be from the 1950's and 1960's.

John

[compressore]

Hello John,

very nice photos.

Looking at them, I got immediately reminded of a dinner invitation with my battalion commander (Army) some 30 years ago.
As fresh ensigns, we were invited to join him for the first time and all of us were a bit nervous.
So all went well....Unitil....

I am left handed when it comes to fork and knife, so I use always my right hand for the fork.
I started to eat with a good appetite....and my commander stared at me for a long time. I already felt "hot".
Finally after a good while of staring at me he said: "Ensign, please note that you are eating my salad"

Oh, my god... I thought the small salad at my right side was mine..no, its was his. Mine was at my left.

He took it with humor. But think what ? Some days later we had a formal education hour about table set-up and "table manners".

Regards
Christian

[John R.]

There was also humor in a wardroom. As a young and insignificant nitwit of an officer I was invited during a training evolution to eat in the wardroom of a diesel submarine.

OK, no problem I thought, even though I had never stepped foot on or in a sub in my life.

It was for lunch so I thought it would be the usual fare but no, it was crab legs. I had no idea what was expected of me, how do you eat those things in "polite company". So my crab legs were placed in front of me by somebody and the Captain and everybody else just stared at me, waiting for me to start as the guest maybe. Very cramped quarters too.

I could not start since I did not know exactly how to proceed and then they all burst out laughing and the Captain said "Dig in!!!" or some such thing and crab and shells went flying all over the place as they enjoyed the treat.

Remember, in most navies, but for sure the US Navy, officers pay for their food through the "Mess treasurer" who with the "Mess President" works out monthly menus and from that monthly bills to the officers. Some messes are cheap in nature, other are more elaborate, so each ship was different in food and in cost, assuming there was a separate mess from the crew.

With large ships, mess cooking might be separate, smaller ships or smaller modern crew sizes even on cruisers might mean everybody eats from the same mess, officers and sailors alike. In that case, the officers still pay for their consumption of food. Officers still eat in their wardroom and the sailors on the mess decks, but it is the same food. If it is not the same food, one junior officer eats a meal a day on the mess decks and provides a written report to the Executive Officer about the experience as a quality check. The Executive Officer normally inspects the enlisted mess decks and kitchens plus other means of feedback from the crew to him on food quality and other issues bothering the sailors.

Sailors pay too but they do not realize it since it is deducted from their pay in advance while officers have to actually "fork" over the money to the Mess Treasurer every month.

John

[compressore]

........But I found another similar list for U-530 in the library of congress.

If this list has the same color differentiator, than we have a rock-solid proof.
http://findingaids.loc.gov/db/search...er%C3%A4tesoll

Hi,

with the help of a librarian at the National Archives, I was able to get hands on this list.
Indeed, we have now a very solid proof that the color schemes were used. Please find the respective pages from the document.

Regards
Christian

[compressore]

Senior NCOs

Senior NCOs