KM Small Coffee Cup and Soup Bowl

[Stason]

Stason, do you mean it is above the clear glaze or below it?

The producer of Eschenbach porcelain under glaze.
Eagle over glaze.

[David Fettes]

Thank you for the photos of the 1943 dated Heer and RAD items, very nice.

Now to get to your other post. Now we have a major problem. Any markings over the glaze is fake, it cannot be any other way, it has to be under the glaze.

All decoration, markings, backstamps are added to the piece, it is then dipping in clear glaze (although it looks white before firing) and then the item is fired in a kiln.

If the marking is above the glaze it is wrong, pure and simple.

The old fakes from around 20-25 years ago were very easy to spot due to this issue, the newer fakes which have started appearing in the last 10 years are more difficult.

They have the backstamps under the glaze but a few things give them away.

1:- They make shapes and sizes of procelain that did not exist for Wehrmacht contracts.
2:- They use the wrong eagles for certain companies. (Example below)
3:- In the case of the blue speckled KM egg cups, they not only have the colour wrong but have eagles on the sides.



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[compressore]

Wrong....

Any markings over the glaze is fake, it cannot be any other way, it has to be under the glaze.

Technically you are wrong. There is a lot of porcelain which has "over the glaze" décor" or a mix of over/under.
Also the porcelain can have various "burnings" in a kiln, not only one.
There can be various manufacturing and "decorating" steps requiring different temperatures.

Please note that I state "technically" and not whether this was happen with the items shown above.

In addition, its mentioned of the website http://www.porzellanfieber.de/ that the there is a manufacturing of Wilhelm Jaeger of the year 1942 where the green stripes are on ! the glazing.

Regards
Christian

[David Fettes]

There are of course different firings during the process on making a porcelain item, however the final glaze is the last process, which is what I am talking about.

The person who placed the company trade mark transfer on the item would also be resonsible for adding the KM, Heer, Luftwaffe etc etc transfer.

Once all decor and backstamps have been added (with the odd semi firing in the middle in some cases) then the final glaze is applied and the item giving its last firing, which seals everything underneath.

To have a marking above the final glaze is not correct.

Having lived and worked for over 10 years in the porcelain manufacturing centre of the UK (Stoke-on-Trent) I am fully aware of the processes involved.

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[Stason]

Technically you are wrong. There is a lot of porcelain which has "over the glaze" décor" or a mix of over/under.
Also the porcelain can have various "burnings" in a kiln, not only one.
There can be various manufacturing and "decorating" steps requiring different temperatures.

Please note that I state "technically" and not whether this was happen with the items shown above.


Regards
Christian

+1

Porcelain : police, DRK, military and training camp.

[compressore]

No....

There are of course different firings during the process on making a porcelain item, however the final glaze is the last process,
.

No, that's what I am talking about.
There is porcelain which have the final glazing !! and afterwards !! a décor is brought on and burnt on the glaze and not under it !

[David Fettes]

That may be correct for some items with fancy decoration, hand painted items for example, but not for the pieces we are talking about, the markings cannot be above the glaze and below it. They would have placed on at the same time.

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[compressore]

They can....

Why not ?

Technically they can. Please note too what I have stated here:

........
In addition, its mentioned of the website http://www.porzellanfieber.de/ that the there is a manufacturing of Wilhelm Jaeger of the year 1942 where the green stripes are on ! the glazing.

Regards
Christian

So when the green stripes are on the glazing, why not the eagle M ? "Technicially " ?

[David Fettes]

During the final firing, coloured bands and backstamps fuse with the glaze, creating a non porous surface, as smooth as glass and are thus under the glaze. Not above it.

During the war years the idea was to save money, yet you wish to believe that they would add an extra process by doing an extra firing? Makes no financial sense what so ever. They had to make it as quick as possible and ship it out, not take more time making it.

With the German war machine running low on supplies, they started to reduce the size of the jackboot to save leather, then mid 1943 made more use of the ankleboot, saving even more leather, time and money in their construction.
The same was true for a huge amount of equipment and clothing, wool quality decreased and the M44 tunic saved even more material.

An extra time consuming process mid war does not make sense.




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[Loke]

Hi David. With all the respect I am capable to mobilize. With friendly greetings from ice cold Norway. With snowsugar on top. It is my impression that you have been on very thin ice from the very beginning of this thread. It seems you rapidly create strong suitable beliefs regarding norms and systems in the Wehrmacht apparatus, but please do remember the fact that the Wehrmacht and their suppliers were masters of improvisation. Not everything is textbook. For example, there is nothing wrong with the poor non-droptail late,
fat and duck-like LW Felda-bird you showed us.

Further, I think you even went through the cold ice one or two times:

The colours have nothing to do with rank, it is just decor...

(Not correct)

...the extra cost to produce a different colour ring for each officer / beamte class was too great.

(Not correct)

... the rings are decoration.

(Not correct)

The colours... is a dealer myth IMO to charge a higher price for an "Officers" set.

(Not correct)

Any markings over the glaze is fake...

(Not correct)

...the markings cannot be above the glaze and below it. They would have placed on at the same time...

(Not correct)

...A captain in the middle of a storm, in the Atlantic is not going to complain...

(O'HOY!)

Having lived and worked for over 10 years in the porcelain manufacturing centre of the UK (Stoke-on-Trent) I am fully aware of the processes involved.

(Very interesting!)

It pleases me to read that we have true connoisseurs of porcelaine an board, as it might help us naval porcelaine collectors and other interested individuals to diverse the myths from the facts. Now, what exactly was your job in the porcelain manufacturing centre of the UK (Stoke.on-Trent) You see, I do have some questions connected to the process where the actual stamp/factory brand is actually being placed on the porcelain ware. Traditionally style, not by modern machines. I imagine it must be some kind of liquid form, either stamped on, or perhaps even painted through a stencil? An answer from a skilled person might help me through future evaluations of the Kriegsmarine porcelaine stamps. And win future discussions.

Best regards,

mit herzlichen Grüss aus Norvegen,

Loke

[David Fettes]

My actual job was not important but if you really must know, I used to run the shop for a small potbank, so I know the processes that take place, as I have seen it and even tried it, it is not as easy as you would think. Doesnt matter if its a small firm or a large one, the transfer printing is the same, the back stamps are all placed on the piece at the same time and as such you cannot have one under the glaze and one above it on the same piece, it just does not work that way.

The canteen ware backstamps are not hand stamped or printed liquid, they are a transfer print.

As a side note transfer printing was developed in the UK during the mid 1700's


I am not sure what you mean by the droop tail Luftwaffe eagle comment, I quite clearly show the correct eagles on the right, the one on the left is a fake and does not contain the Fl.U.V which it should do. You will also note the date is in the wrong place.


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[Loke]

I am not sure what you mean by the droop tail Luftwaffe eagle comment...

Well, the thing is that variations, even odd ones, do pop up within the field of Wehrmacht porcelain collecting. But it does not necessarily mean that these things are fakes. Due to mass production things are not always perfect, and in the era of the third Reich we can imagine that the logistic lines of materials for small and large factories at least were under pressure. An open mind for potential variations is important, if not you might pass on genuine treasures of porcelaine.

Interesting to learn more about the stamp processes, thank you.

I wish I could help you with your confusion around the stripes on the RAD porcelaine, but that's an unknown niche for me.

Best regards,

Loke

[David Fettes]

Of course there are variations but when an item contains a mistake, then I leave them alone. For example you find fake Luftwaffe porcelain with the letters FLUV on them, all in capital letters. This is wrong and no German firm would ever do it. The correct way is FlUV, because the F and the L are the first two letters of the word Flieger.

As for the other porcelain with colured rings (DAF items) I am sure they are decoration only due to the patterns that you find in the colours, they can be a solid band, dots, rings, all sorts of things.

Also if you find any KM marked plates or bowls that measure over 23 cms across (and I mean 30+ cms) leave them alone, they are also fake. The only plate that is over 23cms is the oval meat plate. These new (last 10 years) fakes have the backstamp under the glaze but as with everything in life, the tiny details count.

Study your porcelain carefully, know the sizes and the various shapes. Study which eagle designs go with each manufacturer, for each year and you should be ok.

If it isnt a one look original, walk away.



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[Loke]

...if you find any KM marked plates or bowls that measure over 23 cms across (and I mean 30+ cms) leave them alone, they are also fake

I completely disagree with you, as there are plenty of examples from Norway which proves that this is another false statement from your keyboard, regarding Kriegsmarine porcelaine.

...Study which eagle designs go with each manufacturer...

Regarding the designs of the eagle, there might very well be variations, even by the same producer, and same year. For instance: KPM had several eagle designs in 1942, but that does not mean that only one of them is correct and the others are fakes.

Best regards,

Loke

[David Fettes]

I am trying to be helpful here.

ALL original German made canteen plates and bowls are 23cms across. Any "German" made canteen plate or bowl that is a larger size (except for the oval meat plates) are fakes.


As I said "Study which eagle designs go with each manufacturer" what part of that did you not understand? The image you showed, shows the standard Wehrmacht eagle in combination with a KM M, and the unique KM eagle and the M. Both are correct for KPM for 1942, both in design and colour.

As I said before it is the details that matter.