Kriegsmarine/Reichsmarine/Imperial/Bundesmarine Cap Tallies

[Marine HJ]

tallies of German pre-45 Navy's

Let me post some examples of tallies of the different German Navy's. I will try to explain the basic characteristics. To keep it simple for now I will take the most common ones: ships.
Shore based units of the Kaiserliche Marine (Imperial German Navy) and latin script type Reichsmarine are sometime very difficult to distinct and it is then down to the knowledge when this particular unit was active. Same applies to the ships/boats of the named tallies of Kriegsmarine and early (Gothic script type) Bundesmarine - knowing what ship was at what time is the key factor here.

First the different types of Kaiserliche Marine.
Gold for "Seemännisches Personal" (all deck-related personnel).
Silver for "Schiffstechnisches Personal" (all technical personnel. also administrative staff wore silver)
Red for "Schiffsjungen" (I would like to translate this with "cadets" - maybe another member has a better translation)

Cotton thread was introduced in early 1917. Yellow cotton was the substitute for Gold, white cotton for silver. Note: in the case of Emden the yellow cotton tally belonged to the 2nd Emden (1916-1919).
The ships of the KaiMarine had the prefix "S.M.S.", meaning "Seiner Majestäts Schiff", similar to the H.M.S. on British ships. The S.M.S. tallies were worn from 1890 - 1918. Prior 1890 without S.M.S. but just the ship's name.
With a very few excemptions, there was no ship's type mentioned on Imperial tallies but just "S.M.S. [ship's name]".
There are no well made copies with metall thread known so far, so it is pretty safe to buy such tallies. The reverse side looks exactly as the latin Reichsmarine tally from reverse - see the post below.

[Marine HJ]

Reichsmarine tallies

On the picture below you can see the "STATIONSYACHT NIXE" RM tally in direct comparison with a "TENDER SAAR" post 1960 Bundesmarine (the German Navy of the Fed.Germ. Rep.) tally. Different to the Imperial Navy on both types the ship's type is mentioned beside the name. In general there are just metall thread tallies in the RM while in the BM yellow cotton is used o f f i c i a l l y .
Attention: sailors on ships of the Bundesmarine can buy metall thread tallies in the ship's canteens. So be aware that Gold thread tallies can come up from Bundesmarine ships as well. Again, knowing what ship was at was time is the key!

[Marine HJ]

Reichsmarine tallies (2)

The reverse side is obviously distinctive between these two tallies. Also, in hand, you will f e e l the difference of the black ribbons: while RM and KaiM is made from smooth silk the BM is stiff and rough.

Note: the tallies of the Imperial Navy look more or less exactly the same as a RM tally.

[Marine HJ]

Kriegsmarine & Gothic BM tallies

On the picture below you can see a KM "Torpedoboot Iltis" and an early BM tally "Bundesmarine". The BM used this pattern until April 1960 before the switched to the "TENDER SAAR" pattern you can see in the post above.

Now it becomes very tricky to distinct. Once more: to know what unit was in service at what time is the deciding key. The way these two tallies are made is very similar, despite, once in hand, the BM tally is by far not that smooth and the KM is a bit thinner.

[Marine HJ]

Kriegsmarine & Gothic BM tallies (2)

The reverse side. Also very similar. The KM tally makes an impression as it was made with a bit more care, right?
Note: you might say 'The metall thread is much brighter - this is easy to distinct!' - it's a false friend, the majority of early BM in metall is much darker as the are fading the same way as KM tallies with the time.

However, most Gothic BM tallies are made from yellow cotton. I cannot post one since I don't have one. Maybe one of you has a cotton early BM and I can post the direct comparison cotton KM and cotton BM.

That's it for today. Hope this helped a little bit.

Dani

P.S.: Just for completion of the subject "eras of pre-45 cap tallies" it is to mention that there is something like a preliminary Reichsmarine which was active mostly in 1919/1920. The duties were mostly down to minesweeping. However, despite Minesweepers they had also some old ships like f.e. the "KREUZER HAMBURG". Since this is only a very small part of pre-45 cap tallies I spared you this for now. Again I can only refer to the book which is currently worked at: all tallies existent between 1918 and 1945 will be in there, including preliminary RM.

[km-spain]

Very illustrated, thanks Dani. Interesting to see the evolution of the German tallies along 70 years.

[John R.]

I thinik I have to agree with Eduardo here. On page 32 of Vol. 2, "Die Kriegsmarine" by Angolia, he states that the "kriegsmarine" ribbon was introduced by the Navy Mobilization Order dated 1 Nov 1938.

Named tallies, according to Angolia, could be worn if security not a problem, but in any case, by mid 1940, peace time ribbons were prohibited.

Of interest, he states that the peace time ribbons were "collected" and this was a requirement. This could explain to some extent the lack of more named tallies in circulation today. However, I think many of these ribbons were never really turned in by the sailors or their families.

Schools were permitted to wear the named tallies throughout the war.

Certainly, even after the war broke out, named tallies were worn until replaced by stocks of "kriegsmarine" tallies.

In regards to factories, I think there had to have been more than one. However, it is possible that it was only one I think, and the differences caused by different machines in that factory. I do not know.

Perhaps this will become clear when Bernd and Markus publish their book on this subject.

John

[John R.]

Also here is a display of "Feind" Tallies from a German Collector looking back at us as we look at them...

Note however that the Prinz Eugen and Bismarck tallies are reproductions.

There was no Bismarck tally in any case as we have mentioned in this thread. Or Tirpitz. I am sure he knew this, I just want to make sure KM collectors understand. It looks like he just used them for his very nice display of HMS tallies.

John

[Jeff V]

Note however that the Prinz Eugen and Bismarck tallies are reproductions.

There was no Bismarck tally in any case as we have mentioned in this thread. Or Tirpitz. I am sure he knew this, I just want to make sure KM collectors understand. It looks like he just used them for his very nice display of HMS tallies.

John

I would like to add that in addition to the reproductions John pointed out some of the British ship tallies shown here are reproductions made after the war.
best wishes,
jeff

[Hirschstein]

Justin thanks for the comments

and thank you for opening up this thread which is becoming very educational, John, Dani and others thank you for sharing your items, knowledge and am looking forward to more "learning" of this quite varied German naval topic ~ history......

E ~

[Eric Gaumann]

What a great thread!!!!

Thanks John and Dani for contributing so much knowledge!

It's been years since my tally infatuation has been attented too. I've moved on to other addictions in the militaria field. But here's a portion of my framed collection; the German section (mostly). I have a couple of fistfulls of BM tallies as well stored in a bag in the closet.

[John R.]

Could we see the other board display also. I do not think it matters if it is just strictly German or not. Very nice displays.

If you have interesting tallies please go ahead and post.

John

[JustinG]

To Eric Gaumann

I am guessing that there is a piece of glass and a matted board held together by sort of Tounge-in-groove type assembly for your displays. Is that correct?
Very nice way to display your tallies.

I always am trying to find different ways to display items. This seems like a pretty nice way to store them.


Regards,
2dresq907

[Frank K]

Could we see the other board display also. I do not think it matters if it is just strictly German or not. Very nice displays.

If you have interesting tallies please go ahead and post.

John

Yes, I would also like to see other board display please. I believe there are a couple of Danish between there eg Møen which was a minelayer.

[Trance_Eyes]

SO, I have learn't the definition behind S.M.S what is the definition of the Austrian abbreviation K.u.K?