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**NickG** · 12-31-2014, 02:19 PM

Just received this comment by email from a direct Czech roots collector who I contacted this AM.
Nothing concrete but its an opinion from the source, so he was certainly NOT influenced by Karl's "MI dealer sales pitch"
if you want to call it that! (silly ulterior motive accusations BS)
__________________________________________________ ______

I still stand by the facts, produced earlier - refurbished during war in the Czech republic and at least issued to one unit:
ss polizei division

not repros or post war made!!

If they were post war refurbished they would have different color (olive, non RAL) , chinstraps, liners, liner rivets, helmet pins - all are WW2 pieces - the Czechs would not have had all pieces in surplus, and if they had to make more they would have not marked them with german markings and would have used Czech style materials or construction. The refurbished fire helmets have different liners and helmet band pins - post war made.

On the detector web (CZ)- a guy bought the helmet for about $10 so no one would fake something for $10

And there are not piles of them in the Czech republic still - I only got one over the years - and the ones I saw later went for a few
hundred!
SP

________________________________________

Now you can counter that by stating it was sold for $10 bucks because it was considered post war... and original parts were used because
they are left-overs from the war and locally found and used post May 1945...
So not much to go by but I just wanted to share a CZ source educated opinion! (or belief - view point...)
(with an enormous CZ and German collection which I have seen myself in person..and btw he is NOT sitting on a big pile of these either
and he is a very serious big time and very picky collector!) I sold him my wartime rare Protekorat CZ Gendarme uniform + visor cap.

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-31-2014, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Just received this comment by email from a direct Czech roots collector who I contacted this AM.
Nothing concrete but its an opinion from the source, so he was certainly NOT influenced by Karl's "MI dealer sales pitch"
if you want to call it that! (silly ulterior motive accusations BS)
__________________________________________________ ______

I still stand by the facts, produced earlier - refurbished during war in the Czech republic and at least issued to one unit:
ss polizei division

not repros or post war made!!

If they were post war refurbished they would have different color (olive, non RAL) , chinstraps, liners, liner rivets, helmet pins - all are WW2 pieces - the Czechs would not have had all pieces in surplus, and if they had to make more they would have not marked them with german markings and would have used Czech style materials or construction. The refurbished fire helmets have different liners and helmet band pins - post war made.

On the detector web (CZ)- a guy bought the helmet for about $10 so no one would fake something for $10

And there are not piles of them in the Czech republic still - I only got one over the years - and the ones I saw later went for a few
hundred!
SP

________________________________________

Now you can counter that by stating it was sold for $10 bucks because it was considered post war... and original parts were used because
they are left-overs from the war and locally found and used post May 1945...
So not much to go by but I just wanted to share a CZ source educated opinion!
(with an enormous CZ collection which I have seen myself in person..and btw he is NOT sitting on a big pile of these either!)

Interesting perspective from a local. Seems to be the same as most collectors from that region, but not sure local folklore and fact can be separated. If you know what I mean.

Here are my questions:

*Is this local collector basing his opinion on what he was told (ie: local folklore over the years)
*Is he basing his opinion on something other than the helmets are made from German WWII parts

If it is "just what is accepted" in the local area, or "common knowledge" then that is in the same field as someone disproving the authenticity of the helmet using the Egyptian export theory.

Can you ask him those questions? It would be appreciated.

**NickG** · 12-31-2014, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post

Interesting perspective from a local. Seems to be the same as most collectors from that region, but not sure local folklore and fact can be separated. If you know what I mean.

True Mr Hollywood, but they have not been contaminated with the SOS - MAX show Egypt export story, now completely debunked...Cancelled Israel contract is even more far fetched... (Founded in 1948, helmet existed in 1946...)
This thread has lead to some decent revelations I think. CZ community does have the advantage of being there, knowing their history and speaking the language. Now member Kangaroo from Slovakia is believing the opposite...post war period...so even on that side of the Atlantic
there are different view points on this mystery! but locals do have better source information...but it could also be hearsay I guess...
Lets keep it going! dig dig dig!

**francis006** · 12-31-2014, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by M35 View Post

Interesting thoughts, and Doug I especially appreciate your comments.

As far as the 1946 dated chinstrap, I have seen these Czech marked straps before, usually loose. Did the Czechs date stamp things like that when they put the item in their inventory? Or when pieces and parts were assembled? Or when the item was re-issued to their own people? Or??

As far as that helmet with the Czech emblem under the paint, that doesn't really fit into the discussion other than to say it is a similar color tan. It is obviously NOT one of these tan refurbs.

What do we really know about bvl/qvl helmets? Very little. We don't know where they were made for sure, or by whom, or when they were first made. 1943? 1944? 1945?

Cheers,
Terry

Hi my friend ,

I must say I'm surprised by your affirmation and GAMS1 about the "tan" helmet as it's the same kind I've seen coming from the different lots ? They are not the same as the 2 you posted Terry but if you read again my first intervention , there were at least 2 types (or 3 if you take in count Jim's one) , with different textures and colors , one on brand new shells with very dull paint and one on reissue helmets with DARKER greenish hue and different texture .
There also the same different types not only Radovan on GHW but Nick, Aries etc ... show in the previous pages . FE given as exemple post 141 and 373 and not dismissed ?

It's sure if you don't trust in it .....

So my point was different than yours and even if nothing has been proven , we made IMHO interesting steps forward lately as there were some facts , or something other than BW pics and suppositions , given like the use of German helmets just after the war , 1946 stamp but also pics (I'm sure there are others , let's hope they'll emerge) and IMHO the important one , the emblem under the reissue paint . If post war it would mean the paint isn't period for sure
I'm not a specialist in Czech emblems and IMHO a way to investigate primarily as if proven , again that would close the discussion unless , I agree , if you doubt the origine of this helmet .

We also refined the time frame as we find very late qvl/bvl and even refurbished helmets with 44 dated rivets so at least , if war time produced , they should be some productions till late 44/ 45 .

Last thing I realy would like to talk with you (and others for sure

) as I must say I am "troubled" by the paint even if it's called RAL for SURE since the beginning .
It's IMHO impossible to tell anything as there are so much variations and also the pics taken can be far from reality .
The only thing I can tell is from the first time I saw them till now , in hand , from the lighter colors to darker variations , all have this "greenish" hue in the paint that IMHO doesn't make them TAN as said , a color I can't find on camos I had in hand so far.
The only close green factory paint is on a panzerfaust dated 45 and I can tell you the color has nothing to do with tan or the light Czech "tan"( I also have a tan pzfaust ) , it's a kind of pea green like Radovan's helmet or the reissue ones.
It seems the same observation has been made by a helmet collector (Jim ) about his Czech helmet on GHW who says :"I'm not seeing the yellow tint in my example" and this detail lead him to think about the possible connection with hypotetical olive/green Rumanian helmets .

As you like tan helmets and equipment as much as me Terry

, I realy would like to hear your opinion and if you've ever seen a camo with this shade of paint and texture

(don't talk about green mediterranean helmets )

That's being said , the paint could have been mixed with Czech one , other RAL etc ..... Ok I know , only observations , nothing conclusive .
As a wise and open mind , I have thoughts to one side or the other but as they only are what they are , no interest to give them

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-31-2014, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

SOS - MAX show Egypt export story, now completely debunked...

I would disagree with this statement.

The recollections of Bill Shea (and others) who were at the shows is first hand experience. The fact that there was a retired Army guy selling these helmets in mass quantity at the show is factual. Multiple collectors and dealers who were present witnessed this, and many bought helmets for parts.

The seller of the helmets at that time claimed them to be post war (late 1940's) Czechoslovakian exports, although there was no indication of what country they were to be exported too. So I have never been convinced of the Egyptian theory.

Regarding the Egyptian story....I have never personally subscribed to that notion, however I do believe that they were created for export purposes to whatever country the government was doing business with at the time.

**NickG** · 12-31-2014, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post

I do believe that they were created for export purposes to whatever country the government was doing business with at the time. although there was no indication of what country they were to be exported too.

Who would be the export client for these helmets? (assembled in 1946 or before) so soon after WW2 ended? What country?
I think there was just too much devastation and rebuilding happening that this early time frame makes the post war client ordered case for these actually weaker....
late 40's early 50's yes...Suez crises, decolonization, army's being created by newly independent countries etc...all that happened in the late 40's early 50's (and even later) Not in 1946. The United Nations was barely founded in October 1945 with only 29 members....in its infancy...and the Marshall plan (recovery of Europe) between 1948 and 1951...There was no money, no infrastructure, no food, no clothes, no customers...Governments had other worries...not helmets completely refurbished like that. To me that is a war time need. Period.
WW2 or Suez canal war or whatever conflict. (Suez is too late, Egypt is dead!) The only conflicts in 1946 were rebels, (Greek communists, Indonesian freedom fighters etc...not governments who needed a certain spec helmet, (color/finish etc...thorough rebuild...following a spec)
The 1946 date is game changer for me!
in other words war time assembled and received Czech inventory stamp a little later (in 1946) on RBNr chin war time strap, just like their parkas, saharianas etc...no mods done...just property stamped re-inventoried war time left-overs. (costs nothing!)
If Czech army rebuilds in 1946 for their own military...the (tan color) photos don't exist (German use yes) and btw they would have been sprayed in Czech armed forces olive!

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-31-2014, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Who would be the export client for these helmets? (assembled in 1946 or before) so soon after WW2 ended? I think there was just too much devastation and rebuilding happening that this early time frame makes the post war client ordered case for these actually weaker....
late 40's early 50's yes...Suez crises, decolonization, army's being created by newly independent countries etc...all that happened in the late 40's early 50's (and even later) Not in 1946. The United Nations was barely founded in October 1945 with only 29 members....in its infancy...and the Marshall plan (recovery of Europe) between 1948 and 1951...There was no money, no infrastructure, no food, no clothes, no customers...Governments had other worries...not helmets completely refurbished like that. To me that is a war time need. Period.
WW2 or Suez canal war or whatever conflict. (SUesz is too late, Egypt is dead!) The only conflicts in 1946 were rebels, (Greek communists, Indonesian freedom fighters etc...not governments who needed a certain spec helmet, The 1946 date is game changer for me!

Sorry let me clarify.....................the seller as I understand, didn't claim that the government was exporting them in the 40's. He said that they were made in the late 40's by the government, and were exported as surplus at some point. I take that to mean between late 40's to their first appearance in the late 80's.

If you couple that with the some of the posted dated straps of 1946, and the Czechoslovakian decal present under the tan paint it lends support to the retired Army persons statements to others when they were sold at the Maxx Show late 80's.

You could argue that straps can be replaced, and that helmets could have been painted several times between 1945- 1980's...true...but if the helmets are original there shouldn't be this much fishing to prove them.

**NickG** · 12-31-2014, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post

Sorry let me clarify.....................the seller as I understand, didn't claim that the government was exporting them in the 40's. He said that they were made in the late 40's by the government, and were exported as surplus at some point.

So at some point much later?
Who would do such a thorough rebuild (in 1946?) with the intent to find a buyer much much later??? That costs money...Not a chance!
War time need yes, (Sudfront in tan)
Early post war they had other priorities...Food Clothing!!! Displaced persons! etc...United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration program (UNRRA) ...etc

Certainly not investing in helmets (that were not needed for their own army in those colors) (in 1946) for post war export opportunities
(that did not happen). That's like speculating on the stock market!
Hoping for a Suez canal war to happen, hence the tan color chosen???? and cash in on some recycled old buckets???
(so in anticipation of a future conflict, to take place in the desert?)

Forget the helmet textbook approach or reasoning, think about the geo political and economical circumstances!) The bigger picture!
(and anomalies did happen war time, that is a fact of life with this hobby, like it or not!)
Btw my dad arrived in the US in 1946 with holes in his shirt , patches on the elbows and knees!! Kind of demonstrates the circumstances in 1946!

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-31-2014, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Who would do such a thorough rebuild (in 1946?) with the intent to find a buyer much much later??? That costs money...Not a chance!
War time need yes, (Sudfront in tan)
Early post war they had other priorities...Food Clothing!!! Displaced persons! etc...United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration program (UNRRA) ...etc
Certainly not investing in helmets (that were not needed for their own army in those colors) (in 1946) for post war export opportunities
(that did not happen). That's like speculating on the stock market!
Hoping for a Suez canal war to happen, hence the tan color chosen???? and cash in on some recycled old buckets???
(so in anticipation of a future conflict, to take place in the desert?)

Its impossible to theorize why a government, esp one coming out of a World War would or would not do something.

Its is documented however photographically that shortly after the war more than one nation purchased German military surplus to suit whatever need there was that had to be filled.

A basis of fact cant be determined with hyperbola and "whys". The physical and photographic evidence has to be looked at directly, and then you lend the support of eye witness testimony to verify or debunk.

The intent of this thread was to either prove, or disprove the notion that these helmets are either pre war end, or post war. To this point evidence that is verifiable with actual physical evidence, and photographic documentation, supported by time in place witness points to the following:

*Helmets were created either at wars end, or shortly there after
*Helmets were used by other parties, besides the Germans post WWII
*Helmets are originating from Czechoslovakia
*Helmet configurations are varying between original wartime parts, and post war

*Eyewitness testimony coming from trusted hobby sources back the first appearance of these helmets in the US as late 1980's. Seller was retired Army who exported these helmets from Czechoslovakia. Seller stated that they were made for export after the war

*Helmet manufacture does not match that which is accepted as cardinal rule among the hobby enthusiasts in terms of color /paint type/ or method of finishing as documented in numerous high esteemed books, and among advanced collections.

*Helmet posted on GHW clearly shows post war dated strap, and Czechoslovakian decal under the layer of tan paint

If you strip away "theory" the above listed are verifiable points that can be independently verified. Again the points above are not opinion, or emotion they are bullet-ed verifiable facts.

Is it enough to prove the helmets either way..............no.................it does however take emotion out of the discussion and puts a focus of study into specific points to research.

Hopefully most would concur with the above as a new direction to discuss, and begin to gather information upon.

**M35** · 12-31-2014, 04:31 PM

Hello Francis

Your opinion is one I value greatly. I have to admit, this thread has gotten so long and confusing that I'm not even sure what points have been made and what helmets have been shown or by whom. The thread started out talking about what used to be called Egyptian contract helmets. To me, those are the mint fully refurbished tan/yellow/greenish flat painted shells with late war mint liners and rivets, no dome stamps and no insignia, and covering all shell manufacturers. Somehow this has gotten sidetracked to include factory repaints, field repaints, tropical camos, post war black and green and other color repaints.

Here is what I know. All of the minty refurbished helmets have basically the same color in my eyes. Allowing of course for different handling and storage over the years. I don't care at all about all the others. And the only thing I care about with these is whether they were painted pre or post May 1945. Seems a simple question with no simple answer. But so many side tracks here that I am frankly lost.

One other point. We have all seen pictures of piles of German helmets being scrapped or buried or melted down for steel or even made into cooking utensils. It does not seem logical at all that anyone in the late 1940's would be refurbishing these for possible war surplus resale. Much more logical these were refurbished before the end of the war but never needed nor taken out of storage. They are a good neutral color in flat finish that blends in with many areas. But this again is just an observation and opinion, no facts here!

Cheers,
Terry

**bigdavemac** · 12-31-2014, 05:08 PM

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-31-2014, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by M35 View Post

Hello Francis

Your opinion is one I value greatly. I have to admit, this thread has gotten so long and confusing that I'm not even sure what points have been made and what helmets have been shown or by whom. The thread started out talking about what used to be called Egyptian contract helmets. To me, those are the mint fully refurbished tan/yellow/greenish flat painted shells with late war mint liners and rivets, no dome stamps and no insignia, and covering all shell manufacturers. Somehow this has gotten sidetracked to include factory repaints, field repaints, tropical camos, post war black and green and other color repaints.

Here is what I know. All of the minty refurbished helmets have basically the same color in my eyes. Allowing of course for different handling and storage over the years. I don't care at all about all the others. And the only thing I care about with these is whether they were painted pre or post May 1945. Seems a simple question with no simple answer. But so many side tracks here that I am frankly lost.

One other point. We have all seen pictures of piles of German helmets being scrapped or buried or melted down for steel or even made into cooking utensils. It does not seem logical at all that anyone in the late 1940's would be refurbishing these for possible war surplus resale. Much more logical these were refurbished before the end of the war but never needed nor taken out of storage. They are a good neutral color in flat finish that blends in with many areas. But this again is just an observation and opinion, no facts here!

Cheers,
Terry

Terry,

All very good points. Lost can be an understatement when reading this thread.

Let me put this to you.........................I don't believe that the helmets were "repainted during the war". I believe that they were left over in a depot/ warehouse either in original war time paint, or perhaps not painted at all. I believe that at some point in time shortly after the war the Czechoslovakian depots were scoured for materials that could be salvaged, re-purposed, and able to sell to countries that were also in demand of supplies for duties after the war. Photographs support usage of German materials by other nations right at the end of the 2nd WW into the 1950's.

This was the same scenario that played out in Crete, Greece, Italy, and Corsica. Several tons of material from uniforms to arms were recycled, re purposed, or sold from these countries to many others post 1945. Accounts are VERY well documented. There is no reason to believe that Czechoslovakia would be any different. Nations were dealing with over inventory right when the war ended. Solutions ranged from destruction, to recycle to selling materials to those who need it (government, or black market). After the war nations needed to re-build, organize, and they needed assistance/ money. This is why the selling of leftover stock was/ still is extremely beneficial. Try not to focus on Joe Blow who was using a helmet as a pasta strainer in his back yard because his house was blown to pieces..think national and governmental level.

Even today nations continue to sell material to other countries both during war, and post with over inventory, or outdated materials. Started back in time and memoriam and continues today.

The helmet color is indeed universal and can be seen in photos post WWII in Italy, Czechoslovakia, and other countries where tan paint was commonly used.

**90th Light** · 12-31-2014, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post

I often wonder the same and the same goes for those who post on here constantly defending questionable items as "just maybe",what if","could very well be" etc.

It seems to me that some posting on these Forums want to keep everyone confused. If no one is expert then everyone is expert, then good becomes bad and bad becomes good. It happens quite often.

I mean,if you have to discuss an item and go on about it for 50 +++ pages without any real proof,why in the Hell would you want to own it?

Glenn

Glenn,

If it was not for the collectors who kept persevering where would we be on the likes of this now ?

Classic case of;

"no one is expert then everyone is expert, then good becomes bad and bad becomes good.

Chris

Attached Files

**90th Light** · 12-31-2014, 05:35 PM

For how any years, how many threads did those collectors who felt these were WW2 made before May1945 have to hang in there ?
The type of collector who "post on here constantly defending questionable items as "just maybe",what if","could very well be" etc."

Thank god, someone posted some hard to see black and white images and someone else took the time to study them.

As I have said more than once, sometimes a collector can be sitting on the missing link and not realise what they have.
It is threads like this that create awareness of the issue and the questions around the issue. Thus the discoveries of new findings can occur,

Chris

Attached Files

**kevinpre45** · 12-31-2014, 05:59 PM

Love the trash can!

Mr Hollywood! Where did you find that? Karl hasn't called me back yet. Still think late 80s is a bad time for these helmets. The wall didn't come down till 89. I was in the ARMY back then also in Korea 1990 close to DMZ. When was the last time you saw a NK helmet for sale?
Kevin

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