Originally posted by Asper
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Dennis J
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Nobody here is trying to lynch the guy.All we were trying to do was share info on the helmets that he posted and that's that.He is the one with the attitude.I have shared all the info that I know about these post war helmets.
Dennis J -
As far as I understand it's just speculation that these are from an Egyptian contract. Probably correct speculation but it's just a guess nonetheless.
Does anyone know what year this contract was or why it was cancelled? Has any documentation ever been found to back up the contract theory? On what facts are the Egyptian contract theory based?
Does the presence of Italian helmets in the same configuration bolster or detract from the Egyptian contract theory?Comment
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Yes exactly, as I notice I m from Czech Republic and I know a lot of old helmet collectors..some of them collect helmets for all his life, some have helmets from his fathers and grandfathers which collect it to...but never no one said something about Egyptian contract or POST war painting about this helmets, only after 90s some abroad collectors started to spread this information which reduced price on minimum for them and almost all collectors started to belive in this without serious evidence as we can see in this thread....helmets in this colour are tipical for Czechoslovakia, some were found in Romania...almost all were recovered by black one colour...I do not care about price of this helmet, but only want to find some true informations in this well known COLOUR problem.Comment
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Make no sense what you are saying. You are now propagating that these helmets are from Czechoslovakia (Late war), but you started the thread claiming they are DAK (Early/mid war).
. I would like to see one period pic or reference to these helmets? J
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Read this thread from the begining and you will understand....Now I know then this is not DAK camo for sure, but this is now about colour on them, if it is post war or late war is the question now...Comment
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There has been a complete absence of evidence in regard to these helmets one way or the other ever since they came on to the market.
Those who say post war Egyptian, civil defense or man or man on the moon have never been able to produce one scrap of tangible proof.
Equally those who say Afrika, Italy or the last desperate battles in the East have found nothing of any standing.
There was a guy here, who forensically tested the paint because of the half baked theories about it being some sort of post war baked epoxy resin. He found after more than one test that the paint is a metal primer for steel bridges that the Germans did use during WW2 which had ersatz elements due to war time shortage. However this type of paint was made late in the war and on into the early 1950's.
To date these helmets are still a complete mystery. No one knows where exactly they came from and who exactly they were for. Despite all the debates, banter, discussion and men from Mars theories. They reality is that we are no further ahead on solving this one than we were when these helmets first appeared on the market.
In fact they have become an icon in their own right. If you can still find them cheap and complete especially with the original chinstrap, it is worth having one to study.
Another thing to look out for is other items painted with that brown primer paint. So far I have 1944 Jerry can brought back from Italy and a very interesting WH belt buckle which was on a reworked belt where they had converted a WH officer belt into an EM belt.
I am not going to argue the helmets, they are what they are.... "unexplained" and you either like them or you do not, one way or the other
but the Jerry can and belt buckle
Good examples of late war painted items using ersatz primer, directly from the veterans who got them,
ChrisComment
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Indeed, since those khaki color m33 are years 50 issue...Originally posted by GAMS1 View PostComment
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He made it very clear numerous posts ago stating it was a mistake to say these were DAK. Not sure why some just seem to not be able to get past that. Especially those who NEVER contribute in a meaningful manner about anything anywhere on the forum. Getting very old....
I for one like to hear from those in Central Europe where these things have originated.
I hear all kind of dates and sources. I first saw these appear (as did many, many other collectors) at the Baltimore Max Show in 1993. I even bought a mint one (M42) from the guy for $200 while waiting in line to get into the show. Unissued original liner and chinstrap with them as well. They sold like hot cakes and I did not hear anyone challenge the story, at the time, and we all did indeed feel they were late issue factory helmets that were found in Czechoslovakia when the wall came down after 1989. For several years these were accepted as described. Then as a few years passed we all became suspicious because we encountered refinished M40 helmets, and the collecting community then began to reject them.
The Egyptian angle is pretty recent. So, why were they not delivered to the Egyptians back in the 60s and 70s when the Soviets were equipping them with captured WWII German items? The Warsaw Pact was always cash starved, so why didn't they sell them to them? By the early 80s the Egyptians dumped the Soviets and turned to the West (I had 2 Egyptian infantry officers in my class at Ft Bennings - Infantry Officer Basic - in 1982/83).
I turned against these 10+ years ago based more on "conventional collecting wisdom" than any hard facts. So, I am trying to keep an open mind on these, while remaining skeptical.
There are many items which turned up after the wall came down that we never saw before. One was the Luft Ground Division jackets (I think 2 dozen were found in the former DDR) which had tan painted metal dish buttons in almost (if not the same) color of paint. No one doubts those buttons are orginal. We could talk about many TR itmes which are not common to Western collections because the Allies didn't encounter that stuff on a front that was rather small in number of German troops compared to the Eastern Front.
The angle that why didn't GIs pick these up is rather silly. In Czechoslovakia? Soviet territory? US GIs spent very little time in Czechoslovakia, and the time they did spend was very tumultuous (dealing with all the German troops fleeing the Soviets, etc, etc).
Kudos to those who are trying to explain their points and opinions in a language that is not their native language. Think about it.Last edited by Willi Z.; 07-14-2014, 08:35 PM.Willi
Preußens Gloria!
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Sapere audeComment
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Chris, I agree with alot you have stated.Originally posted by 90th Light View PostThere has been a complete absence of evidence in regard to these helmets one way or the other ever since they came on to the market.
Those who say post war Egyptian, civil defense or man or man on the moon have never been able to produce one scrap of tangible proof.
Equally those who say Afrika, Italy or the last desperate battles in the East have found nothing of any standing.
There was a guy here, who forensically tested the paint because of the half baked theories about it being some sort of post war baked epoxy resin. He found after more than one test that the paint is a metal primer for steel bridges that the Germans did use during WW2 which had ersatz elements due to war time shortage. However this type of paint was made late in the war and on into the early 1950's.
To date these helmets are still a complete mystery. No one knows where exactly they came from and who exactly they were for. Despite all the debates, banter, discussion and men from Mars theories. They reality is that we are no further ahead on solving this one than we were when these helmets first appeared on the market.
In fact they have become an icon in their own right. If you can still find them cheap and complete especially with the original chinstrap, it is worth having one to study.
Another thing to look out for is other items painted with that brown primer paint. So far I have 1944 Jerry can brought back from Italy and a very interesting WH belt buckle which was on a reworked belt where they had converted a WH officer belt into an EM belt.
I am not going to argue the helmets, they are what they are.... "unexplained" and you either like them or you do not, one way or the other
but the Jerry can and belt buckle Good examples of late war painted items using ersatz primer, directly from the veterans who got them,
ChrisWilli
Preußens Gloria!
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Sapere audeComment
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Many countries outside the tripartite nations of England,U.S.,and France were trying
desperately to supply the Egyptians with arms and equipment with the Soviets supplying huge amounts via Checkoslavakia in 1954-55(This was a move by Nasser to get the U.S. to supply the weapons he wanted)Wheather or not this had anything to
do with these helmets there is no evidence but I would think it's possible and whats more of a FU to the British than waging war in your enemies enemies helmets.Comment
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I also agree with several of the points raised by Chris/ Willi. The community is split on these and the fact is nobody really knows where these originated. This was extensively discussed on another forum a few years ago and I definitely will not dismiss these as post-war until evidence against it is presented.
Personally, based on all the past discussions and facts available, I lean towards these being late war issue (M42's) and reissues (M40s) - which would support the full shell painting. I would be curious as to numbering and makers of all the examples encountered, along with Brian Ice's updated opinion given his focus on late war M42's. I'll reach out when time allows.
Few leibermuster camo rigs were manufactured and distributed pre May 45, and to my knowledge all to Eastern front units, making US pick-ups the exception and most likely via its Austrian reach for instance. However, for years the community was also split as to weather these were actually worn until recently more concrete photographic evidence surfaced. Petr's photos are a good example.
The list goes on with pink oakleaf smocks (still heavily contested), SS Q decals (accepted), Assman 3 prong skulls (lines in back, vet provenance has convinced most of us), etc... I've learned to keep my mind open and reserve judgment until evidence convinces me either way.
Cheers,
AsperComment
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I too would like to know the truth about these helmets.I was told way back then that they came out of post war stock from Czech or was a buy from Egypt stock that was post war.Originally posted by Aries22 View Post
Dennis JComment
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It would be good to get some input from a guy like KenN on this matter, just a thought....?
Robt.Comment
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Ken does not like this forum and I think he was kicked off here after it was found out he sold a field police helmet that had the liner changed out and did not tell a buyer.I think that was the jest of it.There are more helmet collectors and dealers than Ken(I have no problem with Ken and I think he knows his helmets as well as anybody).What about that other helmet forum in Europe(I can't think of the name)they should know something about both the German and Italian helmets posted here....jmo.Originally posted by RGD51 View Post
Dennis JComment
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He said "KenN" and he usually attends the Allentown Show, but was not there last weekend. I was hoping to ask him about these. We have a number of old threads on these helmets so I will take a look.Willi
Preußens Gloria!
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Sapere audeComment
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