Panzer Collection-Be Careful

[Edward]

Anyone remember this auction company from the 1980's? They always seemed to have a lot of uniforms. I recall that not a few were to elite units such as GD, et al. The tunic pics I recall reminded me more of either a complete fantasy, or hump up's made to appeal more to bidders. Would also have been interesting to know who the dealers, or collectors were consigning the stuff. Wonder how many are still gracing collections as a center piece.

[kammo man]

Nick
We were both there at the gathering when this fake crap was presented
Everyone was asked to bring one item to present and talk about
Richard brought at least 5 of these fake wraps and it was embarrassing for the host and the majority of the collectors in attendance.

It happened on several occasions during other meetings.
I remember you were there.
I know I seen the fakes several times and the advanced guys were rolling there eyes

No one liked the stuff
He had 1 good wrap and that was it


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[DonC]

Wonder how many are still gracing collections as a center piece.

My guess is a whole hell of a lot of it. I suspect that many collectors who do not specialize in TR-era items have them sitting right next to Patton's riding crop and Custer's saddle. I visited a friend's uncle who had a house full of every sort of possible militaria from Roman times to Gulf I. He pulled out a modern cap box to show me his prize possession in mint condition - it was a Janke white-topped SS visor. This was about 15 or 16 years ago when I knew a lot less than I do now, and even then I felt embarrassed because I didn't have the heart to tell him. He probably would not have believed me anyhow.

Don

[Johnny R]

My guess is a whole hell of a lot of it. I suspect that many collectors who do not specialize in TR-era items have them sitting right next to Patton's riding crop and Custer's saddle. I visited a friend's uncle who had a house full of every sort of possible militaria from Roman times to Gulf I. He pulled out a modern cap box to show me his prize possession in mint condition - it was a Janke white-topped SS visor. This was about 15 or 16 years ago when I knew a lot less than I do now, and even then I felt embarrassed because I didn't have the heart to tell him. He probably would not have believed me anyhow.

Don

Before the internet there were at least 3 Gunther Prien groupings made that I saw. They all had awards, his leather jacket and blue uniforms etc. Now with the net it is very hard to get away with this. I know of one collector who is very wealthy and has maybe 15-20 fake tunics like this to high ranking individuals next to a room with a collection of probably fake 18th century clocks next to another room full of rare jukeboxes. Money without knowledge attracts junk

[Jeff V]

As many of us I suspect who have been showed fakes in person, I usually keep my mouth shut unless asked directly. Years ago i was shown a bad fake, which I told the owner, only to be blasted. Now I just say "interesting" and move on. My experience is collectors do not want to hear that their prize is fake, especially in person.

[Hans Kristian]

As many of us I suspect who have been showed fakes in person, I usually keep my mouth shut unless asked directly. Years ago i was shown a bad fake, which I told the owner, only to be blasted. Now I just say "interesting" and move on. My experience is collectors do not want to hear that their prize is fake, especially in person.

This is really sad and frustrating. But unfortunately I think you are right.

[Willi Z.]

My response when asked from someone who can't handle the truth is "it wouldn't be for me". Some get it, but many don't.

Reminds of a guy I met at a show who told me he had a FJ smock for sale. I went to his house and it was a poor quality fake. I told him so, and he didn't like it. So, he then asked me if I wanted to see his SS and GD Panzer/ Assault Gun wrap collection. I said sure, why not. Went into a room in his basement that had more than 20 fully dressed mannequins of every SS unit imaginable. He asked what did I think, and I responded "I don't know these well, but they wouldn't be for me, and you should ask xxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx at the show tomorrow". He responded with a "fxck xxxxx xxxxxxxxx, he doesn't know anything, I get these from a private source who gets them directly from the vets in Germany". So, I thanked him for his time and departed.

There are 1000s of collectors like that out there.

[o.r.k.]

Well defending something you really financiually bled for is an understandable reaction. (but not gettting rude like to you, Willi , in your experience) You also see fellow collectors here clinging to their belief and others really getting mad about it and all too sudden the tone of the thread gets nasty. I think it´s enough hinting at the problem and either the guy takes it or not. For sure also the stiffest defender has inert doubts when hearing that his stuff is most probably a fake. But if someone has spent quite a few thousand bucks on it, it´s is like feeling ripped off in a split second and the messenger gets what the dealer deserves.

[derka]

It is quite refreshing to read again #33 of this thread, considering some of those items were still offered for sale years later by the same dealer, as original of course.
But his reputation is the most important thing ; he is still on the market nowdays, which reflects his integrity as a stand up guy behind what he sells.
derka

[John Pic]

I handled some wraps from Richard's old collection today , a few of them. I will say that I do not believe anyone who has criticized the ones I handled and examined today has the slightest clue what they are talking about, maybe 20 years or so of wasted experience. I examined 4 and IMO they are 100% original period tunics, no one could convince me otherwise. In fact one that was condemned has remarkable evidence of period tailoring that could only be noticed in a hands on inspection. My bet is that most people here never hand inspected any of them, they passed by and with one laser beam eye determined they were fakes. I also would bet no one here has handled enough tunics like them to determine originality from just photos or a cursory look....I think some people just play games and pretend they know things.

[DonC]

John, which of the condemned tunics did you like?

Don

[OSS]

I will say that I do not believe anyone who has criticized the ones I handled and examined today has the slightest clue what they are talking about, maybe 20 years or so of wasted experience.

Perhaps the one which made most favorable impression on you is the Panzer recon bandsman uniform with the numbered Panzer Aufklarungs Music School straps manufactured by the well known cap manufacturer "Karl Kubach"(post 106). The only thing more laughable than some of these (obvious and ridiculous) fantasy creations are your arrogant and condescending remarks.

[MM1985]

If we are talking about factory produced garments with common maker stamps it is an easy call if fake or not.

Tailored pieces are another story but from what I have seen of this collection most pieces where factory produced examples with common size stamps and maker stamps but sadly most not original.....

[John Pic]

No it wasn't a "bandsman" . I will not reveal the ones I looked at they were nothing too fancy but Imo 100% original and period put together, I have examined many tunics over 40 years both fake and real, modern fakes and put together tunics. These were too good and too old to be high end fakes. The insignias on one were exquisite and no fake I ever looked at could match them and they had been on the uniform for a long time.

One tunic had been retailored to have a different color piping the tailor simply added a new collar material over the old and the original piping is still underneath the new. What " genius " faker would even think about doing that ? But I digress I have nothing further to add than some people missed out on a few fairly rare pieces...and some people are experts because they say so. To be fair some of us have years in the hobby and have seen many things but when it comes to uniforms no one has seen enough to be a complete expert. I have handled SS officer tunics of many varieties and tailoring oddities.

So yes Be Careful...be careful of the advice you take from others and learn to be an independent assessor.

[derka]

John,
Richard certainly had some nice original items in its collection, and you were lucky if you had the oportunity to handle them.
But to clarify your comments, the question is did you handle the 4 wraps i put pics in #106 and the HBT wrap in #120, and if so do you consider they are all original ?
Or are you talking about other wraps than those ?
derka